Sister in law purchased a new rider and I was reading the owners manual and it recommended synthetic. It also recommended changing the oil, oil filter and air filter after the first five hours of use. Now I can see the oil and oil filter but why the air filter.
Full synthetic
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clemsonfor
Super Member
And why full syn for 5 hours? I guess just to cover the guy starting it at 30F or 110f running full tilt?
Soundguy
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Maybee they rec syn, but send it with break in oil?
daugen
Epic Contributor
that would make more sense, though five hours isn't much "break in time". My assumption is they want to get the metal filings out.
My Vanguard twin has a ten hour first oil change. To set the rings conventional wisdom has always suggested conventional oil.
But maybe times have changed, and if all they want to do is flush the engine, I suppose they can ship it with most any oil.
But for warranties, if they ship that engine to a fire company in Alaska who starts up a fire pump at full power at 20 below, yeah, having
synthetic oil at first start up makes sense then. But maybe not any other time.
changing the air filter automatically at five hours is ridiculous...
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That was my thought.. metal chips.
as for shipping with full syn for break in. lots of vehicles are delivered full syn new, so that must not be an issue.. and given the small amount of oil these things take.. it's not a bank breaker to ship with a cheap no brand syn just to get metal chips out.
So I see the filter and oil change at 5hr... but not the air filter change at 5 hours.
I think that one is just to generate income.
as for shipping with full syn for break in. lots of vehicles are delivered full syn new, so that must not be an issue.. and given the small amount of oil these things take.. it's not a bank breaker to ship with a cheap no brand syn just to get metal chips out.
So I see the filter and oil change at 5hr... but not the air filter change at 5 hours.
I think that one is just to generate income.
daugen
Epic Contributor
I think it would only be "too early", to address the OP's original question, if the engine had not been run in at all at the factory, most might be only assembled started and stopped (do they even do that?????...I really don't know.) Maybe they don't want the gasoline in there. So assuming very little piston travel time, if the engine had petro oil in it (which could either be an engineering decision or a cost decision, and who knows?) I think I'd be inclined to let it run at least ten hours. The higher quality the engine, perhaps the higher quality/harder the piston/ring finish, and perhaps the longer it needs to "break in". Lot of assumptions... I am sure no engineer but would love to hear from one. Are we really concerned about anything other than the rings seating? Is there any other purpose for a break in period?
But we really have to shift gears a bit when we talk about tractor motors. Much more expensive than lawn mower engines, and I sure would think that Kubota, just as an example, would start and run their diesels before shipping them out. And most car manufacturers now have engineered break in periods out or much reduced than what they used to be. Still not such a hot idea to wail on fresh brakes...
sure are a lot of variables to consider, including metallurgy. If the engine was not run it at all at the factory, and subsequently not had its oil changed, sure seems important to flush that first oil out of there sooner vs later. I mean if they aren't going to take the time to run in their engines, are they going to take the time to smooth off all the edges? No, there will be little bits of metal in there. Even a few can't be good running through bearings.
But we really have to shift gears a bit when we talk about tractor motors. Much more expensive than lawn mower engines, and I sure would think that Kubota, just as an example, would start and run their diesels before shipping them out. And most car manufacturers now have engineered break in periods out or much reduced than what they used to be. Still not such a hot idea to wail on fresh brakes...
sure are a lot of variables to consider, including metallurgy. If the engine was not run it at all at the factory, and subsequently not had its oil changed, sure seems important to flush that first oil out of there sooner vs later. I mean if they aren't going to take the time to run in their engines, are they going to take the time to smooth off all the edges? No, there will be little bits of metal in there. Even a few can't be good running through bearings.
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HAVE TO CONSIDER THE METAL CHIPS AND FOUNDRY AND MACHINING DEBRIS. darn caps..
It's not like there are large chunks of metal running through the engine.
They have pick up screens, and filters. That's what they are for.
The entire idea of changing the oil because of this machining debris is, in my opinion, flawed. If there is all this junk in there, you really need to get out, why wait 10 hours? Or, in the case of these expensive tractors, 50 hours?
The reason you replace the air filter at 10 hours, is so they can make money. :thumbsup:
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I dunno.. I've bought small engines that were shipped dry, and got some metalic dust and 2-3 machining chips out on a magnetic plug after a flush.
The plug did its job mind you, and captured them.. But they were there. For aluminum, I imagine they'd just hit the pan bottom.
The plug did its job mind you, and captured them.. But they were there. For aluminum, I imagine they'd just hit the pan bottom.
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Guys,
Well after 36 years at Cat in Aurora Il In assembly, test, and then engine plant parts logistics. I can only speak for what I know. All Cat engines big and small are run on a test stand after assembly. These stands have a filtering system and the engine is tested and set for all sorts of parameters for the application it will be used in. Then an oil sample is taken recorded and the results are sent with the engine. Fluids are then drained for shipment new filters are installed and If it does not pass the oil sample it will be run flushed and filled, then run again. They seldom fail the a oil sample test, At that point they go to paint then to shipping to the assembly plant where the engines will be married to the machine it will be used in. Once installed in a machine they are again filled with fluids and again are put on a test stand where all system specs are set.
The engine machining parts processes are so rigorous that there should be no chips or shavings. Parts are machined, blown out,washed, blown out again then inspected, Many times, most, today this is all done by machine and they hold to an extreme close tolerance. So the machine not only machines the part it also cleans it. Then the parts are packaged and sent to the engine assembly line. While there is always a chance something may get through it is very very rare. On machines with very complex hydraulic systems like Hydraulic excavators it is even more important to be clean so they run them in flush and fill station for upwards of 30 minutes to clean the machine's hydraulic systems and then new filters are installed. Then an oil sample is taken and if it does not pass it is run through the process till tho oil is shown clean.
I would think today all brands hold to the same kind if rigorous processes and inspections. If they are not I would look for another brand to spend my money on. I am sure most hold to the same standards. I would not be worrying to much about chips in a new engine these days. Now back in 1973 when I started, well lets just say it was a lot looser back then. As they have automated more and removed human hands from the processes things got better. Jobs got worse but quality is better today than then.
Today's machines come with ports so oil samples can be taken. If you have a question on some oil in the machine, get it tested. They can tell you almost anything you would want to know about the health of your machine by these samples. We have come a long way from the old days. :thumbsup:
Now I have been retired since 1-30-2009 but would think things are only better.
I hope this has been helpful information.
Well after 36 years at Cat in Aurora Il In assembly, test, and then engine plant parts logistics. I can only speak for what I know. All Cat engines big and small are run on a test stand after assembly. These stands have a filtering system and the engine is tested and set for all sorts of parameters for the application it will be used in. Then an oil sample is taken recorded and the results are sent with the engine. Fluids are then drained for shipment new filters are installed and If it does not pass the oil sample it will be run flushed and filled, then run again. They seldom fail the a oil sample test, At that point they go to paint then to shipping to the assembly plant where the engines will be married to the machine it will be used in. Once installed in a machine they are again filled with fluids and again are put on a test stand where all system specs are set.
The engine machining parts processes are so rigorous that there should be no chips or shavings. Parts are machined, blown out,washed, blown out again then inspected, Many times, most, today this is all done by machine and they hold to an extreme close tolerance. So the machine not only machines the part it also cleans it. Then the parts are packaged and sent to the engine assembly line. While there is always a chance something may get through it is very very rare. On machines with very complex hydraulic systems like Hydraulic excavators it is even more important to be clean so they run them in flush and fill station for upwards of 30 minutes to clean the machine's hydraulic systems and then new filters are installed. Then an oil sample is taken and if it does not pass it is run through the process till tho oil is shown clean.
I would think today all brands hold to the same kind if rigorous processes and inspections. If they are not I would look for another brand to spend my money on. I am sure most hold to the same standards. I would not be worrying to much about chips in a new engine these days. Now back in 1973 when I started, well lets just say it was a lot looser back then. As they have automated more and removed human hands from the processes things got better. Jobs got worse but quality is better today than then.
Today's machines come with ports so oil samples can be taken. If you have a question on some oil in the machine, get it tested. They can tell you almost anything you would want to know about the health of your machine by these samples. We have come a long way from the old days. :thumbsup:
Now I have been retired since 1-30-2009 but would think things are only better.
I hope this has been helpful information.
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