Full synthetic

[Gator6x4]

Sister in law purchased a new rider and I was reading the owners manual and it recommended synthetic. It also recommended changing the oil, oil filter and air filter after the first five hours of use. Now I can see the oil and oil filter but why the air filter.

 

[clemsonfor]

Sister in law purchased a new rider and I was reading the owners manual and it recommended synthetic. It also recommended changing the oil, oil filter and air filter after the first five hours of use. Now I can see the oil and oil filter but why the air filter.

And why full syn for 5 hours? I guess just to cover the guy starting it at 30F or 110f running full tilt?

 

[Soundguy]

Maybee they rec syn, but send it with break in oil?

 

[daugen]

Maybee they rec syn, but send it with break in oil?

that would make more sense, though five hours isn't much "break in time". My assumption is they want to get the metal filings out.
My Vanguard twin has a ten hour first oil change. To set the rings conventional wisdom has always suggested conventional oil.
But maybe times have changed, and if all they want to do is flush the engine, I suppose they can ship it with most any oil.
But for warranties, if they ship that engine to a fire company in Alaska who starts up a fire pump at full power at 20 below, yeah, having
synthetic oil at first start up makes sense then. But maybe not any other time.

changing the air filter automatically at five hours is ridiculous...

 

[Soundguy]

That was my thought.. metal chips.

as for shipping with full syn for break in. lots of vehicles are delivered full syn new, so that must not be an issue.. and given the small amount of oil these things take.. it's not a bank breaker to ship with a cheap no brand syn just to get metal chips out.

So I see the filter and oil change at 5hr... but not the air filter change at 5 hours.

I think that one is just to generate income.

 

[daugen]

I think it would only be "too early", to address the OP's original question, if the engine had not been run in at all at the factory, most might be only assembled started and stopped (do they even do that?????...I really don't know.) Maybe they don't want the gasoline in there. So assuming very little piston travel time, if the engine had petro oil in it (which could either be an engineering decision or a cost decision, and who knows?) I think I'd be inclined to let it run at least ten hours. The higher quality the engine, perhaps the higher quality/harder the piston/ring finish, and perhaps the longer it needs to "break in". Lot of assumptions... I am sure no engineer but would love to hear from one. Are we really concerned about anything other than the rings seating? Is there any other purpose for a break in period?

But we really have to shift gears a bit when we talk about tractor motors. Much more expensive than lawn mower engines, and I sure would think that Kubota, just as an example, would start and run their diesels before shipping them out. And most car manufacturers now have engineered break in periods out or much reduced than what they used to be. Still not such a hot idea to wail on fresh brakes...

sure are a lot of variables to consider, including metallurgy. If the engine was not run it at all at the factory, and subsequently not had its oil changed, sure seems important to flush that first oil out of there sooner vs later. I mean if they aren't going to take the time to run in their engines, are they going to take the time to smooth off all the edges? No, there will be little bits of metal in there. Even a few can't be good running through bearings.

 

[Soundguy]

HAVE TO CONSIDER THE METAL CHIPS AND FOUNDRY AND MACHINING DEBRIS. darn caps..

 

[ray66v]

No, there will be little bits of metal in there. Even a few can't be good running through bearings.

It's not like there are large chunks of metal running through the engine.

They have pick up screens, and filters. That's what they are for.

The entire idea of changing the oil because of this machining debris is, in my opinion, flawed. If there is all this junk in there, you really need to get out, why wait 10 hours? Or, in the case of these expensive tractors, 50 hours?

The reason you replace the air filter at 10 hours, is so they can make money. :thumbsup:

 

[Soundguy]

I dunno.. I've bought small engines that were shipped dry, and got some metalic dust and 2-3 machining chips out on a magnetic plug after a flush.

The plug did its job mind you, and captured them.. But they were there. For aluminum, I imagine they'd just hit the pan bottom.

 

[mkr7734]

Guys,
Well after 36 years at Cat in Aurora Il In assembly, test, and then engine plant parts logistics. I can only speak for what I know. All Cat engines big and small are run on a test stand after assembly. These stands have a filtering system and the engine is tested and set for all sorts of parameters for the application it will be used in. Then an oil sample is taken recorded and the results are sent with the engine. Fluids are then drained for shipment new filters are installed and If it does not pass the oil sample it will be run flushed and filled, then run again. They seldom fail the a oil sample test, At that point they go to paint then to shipping to the assembly plant where the engines will be married to the machine it will be used in. Once installed in a machine they are again filled with fluids and again are put on a test stand where all system specs are set.
The engine machining parts processes are so rigorous that there should be no chips or shavings. Parts are machined, blown out,washed, blown out again then inspected, Many times, most, today this is all done by machine and they hold to an extreme close tolerance. So the machine not only machines the part it also cleans it. Then the parts are packaged and sent to the engine assembly line. While there is always a chance something may get through it is very very rare. On machines with very complex hydraulic systems like Hydraulic excavators it is even more important to be clean so they run them in flush and fill station for upwards of 30 minutes to clean the machine's hydraulic systems and then new filters are installed. Then an oil sample is taken and if it does not pass it is run through the process till tho oil is shown clean.
I would think today all brands hold to the same kind if rigorous processes and inspections. If they are not I would look for another brand to spend my money on. I am sure most hold to the same standards. I would not be worrying to much about chips in a new engine these days. Now back in 1973 when I started, well lets just say it was a lot looser back then. As they have automated more and removed human hands from the processes things got better. Jobs got worse but quality is better today than then.
Today's machines come with ports so oil samples can be taken. If you have a question on some oil in the machine, get it tested. They can tell you almost anything you would want to know about the health of your machine by these samples. We have come a long way from the old days. :thumbsup:

Now I have been retired since 1-30-2009 but would think things are only better.
I hope this has been helpful information.

 

[Soundguy]

I have a feeling throw away lawnmower and generator engines are not run like this.

More likely assembled in a open air factory that may have hard flooring, maybee not.

 

[ray66v]

I have it on good authority Ford had stopped hot testing engines at the Cleveland plant.

They came off the line, and were shipped to go right in the cars.

Back when they did hot test them, they started them up, and ran them full throttle, for 5 minutes. I once saw that in person.

Then, they told you to take it easy on it for the first 500 miles. :laughing: I always pictured a guy buying a car, and babying that same engine.

 

[daugen]

I really think we have to put heavy duty diesel engines in one category and consumer gas in the other.
I have to believe Kubota, Kioti, JD etc run their diesels for awhile to check pressure and performance.
But do I think Briggs "runs in" their 300E and 500E tiny disposable gas engines? No. I do wonder, however, if their Vanguard engines get any special attention.

Boy I wish we knew someone who worked in the Briggs US factory. I'm sure Kohler does the same thing. Interesting that the Kawasaki engine on my new CC lawn tractor specs a ten hour oil change and then mentions synthetic as an option, but that's all. I have a jug of Mobil 1 10-30 ready.
For lawn mower use, can't we buy "bargain" synthetic or a synthetic blend? Do the blends offer any advantage, best of both worlds?, or are they just there to save a dollar on the fill?

I've always bought synthetic oil for the small equipment when it went on sale and didn't worry much about the alphabet designators, oil ratings. Figured anything good enough for a car/truck had to work in a small engine. And it's almost always 10-30, not the 15-40 diesel oil. But is that true? Is any name brand synthetic a good synthetic, i.e. overkill to begin with? All I can say is I have never blown an engine in my life, so I guess I haven't done anything too stupid yet.

 

[ray66v]

I don't run synthetic in lawn mowers. For a golf course, it makes sense. But, for most homeowners, I don't think it makes sense.

The two advantages to synthetic oil are, extreme temperatures, and longer drain intervals.

I don't have to operate my mowers in extreme temperatures. And, because they ingest lots of dirt, I don't want longer intervals.

I'd rather put in mineral oil, and change the oil every 25 hours, and the filter every 50.

For me, that's twice a mowing season. Very doable.

 

[mkr7734]

I have a feeling throw away lawnmower and generator engines are not run like this.

More likely assembled in a open air factory that may have hard flooring, maybee not.

I would tend to agree on lawn mower engines. Their processes are so rigorous and volumes so high that they only do a random QA test s.

 

[Soundguy]

I really think we have to put heavy duty diesel engines in one category and consumer gas in the other.
I have to believe Kubota, Kioti, JD etc run their diesels for awhile to check pressure and performance.
But do I think Briggs "runs in" their 300E and 500E tiny disposable gas engines? No. I do wonder, however, if their Vanguard engines get any special attention.

Boy I wish we knew someone who worked in the Briggs US factory. I'm sure Kohler does the same thing. Interesting that the Kawasaki engine on my new CC lawn tractor specs a ten hour oil change and then mentions synthetic as an option, but that's all. I have a jug of Mobil 1 10-30 ready.
For lawn mower use, can't we buy "bargain" synthetic or a synthetic blend? Do the blends offer any advantage, best of both worlds?, or are they just there to save a dollar on the fill?

I've always bought synthetic oil for the small equipment when it went on sale and didn't worry much about the alphabet designators, oil ratings. Figured anything good enough for a car/truck had to work in a small engine. And it's almost always 10-30, not the 15-40 diesel oil. But is that true? Is any name brand synthetic a good synthetic, i.e. overkill to begin with? All I can say is I have never blown an engine in my life, so I guess I haven't done anything too stupid yet.

I'd always check the c/s rating...

 

[Copperhead]

For lawn mower use, can't we buy "bargain" synthetic or a synthetic blend? Do the blends offer any advantage, best of both worlds?, or are they just there to save a dollar on the fill?

I've always bought synthetic oil for the small equipment when it went on sale and didn't worry much about the alphabet designators, oil ratings. Figured anything good enough for a car/truck had to work in a small engine. And it's almost always 10-30, not the 15-40 diesel oil. But is that true? Is any name brand synthetic a good synthetic, i.e. overkill to begin with? All I can say is I have never blown an engine in my life, so I guess I haven't done anything too stupid yet.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say a name brand synthetic is overkill, but probably not necessary for most folk's needs. Even the bargain stuff at the Farm and Home type stores can be pretty good and a great value. I use the same bulk HDEO CJ-4 / SM 10w30 syn blend (25% Group IV PAO and 75% Group II+ conventional) that goes in my semi truck and compact for my JD zero turn lawn mower, Yamaha portable generator, JD gator, etc. If I don't need a bunch of different oils for everything, then I see no need to buy different varieties. I long since got over the synthetic vs conventional debates. Modern base oils are light years ahead of where they were just a couple of decades ago. I focus more on a robust additive package. The add pack makes up roughly 25% of any oil you buy, synthetic or conventional, and there are major differences between brands in add pack formulation. Full synthetics are great as well, but it still needs a robust add pack to make it work well. There is a lot more to what an oil has to do than any base oil can provide.

 

[DEWFPO]

I have a Champion 9,200 watt portable generator that spec'd it's first dump at 5 hrs. I have no idea who makes engines for Champion.

DEWFPO

 

[daugen]

If I don't need a bunch of different oils for everything, then I see no need to buy different varieties.

simplicity, good idea
I have so many left over quarts of oil for various past cars, of every conceivable rating. All expensive synthetic, just odd grades like 0-40.
Need to use that expensive oil somewhere...
So for engines other than cars/trucks am trying to stick with one good oil.
which in my case is a 10W/30 synthetic.
At issue is using up some old 5w40, 0w40 in lieu of that 10W/30.

How does one identify what additive packs are in one oil vs another?
The rating is one thing, but all oils are clearly not the same.
And are the oils so good now this is all overkill and overthinking?

If the Champion is powered by a Lifan or similar Chinese engine, it will give long life.
I have friends who have repowered with Chondas and are really impressed with the results.
If you can keep the carb clear, it should do very well by you. The electrical end is not my forte.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, if anyone is actually interested in what the add pack formulation is, get a quart of oil you are curious about, take some of the new oil and submit to oil testing lab that you would use for used oil samples. The report will tell you what components make up the add pack and what the starting TBN is. That can be a little pricy based on some labs, but I get oil sample kits from my oil supplier for about $10 a pop, including postage.