Buying Advice Considering Power Trac: Slopes and other questions

[JonFields]

Hi Power Trac Forum,

I'm considering a Power Trac, either 425 or 1430, and I would appreciate some advice, and have a few specific questions.

I own around 7 acres of woods with a thick infestation of invasive honeysuckle, and quite a few dead ash trees from Emerald Ash Borer . There are two small creeks on the property, and consequently there are some slopes ranging from 15-25 degrees, with a few 30 degrees. My goal is to get the woods relatively cleared of the honeysuckle, and then maintain it so that it does not return. I would want to gradually drop the ash trees and cut them up for firewood.

My plan is to clear the honeysuckle in sections by killing it in the late fall with glyphosate, and during the winter cut it and burn it. To prevent it from returning long term I will plant native grasses, and mow it a few times a season with a brush or flail mower.

Because of the slopes, and also with the desire of not tearing up or compressing the soil too much, I have ruled out something like a Bobcat with forestry mulcher (Fecon etc). Plus, that only solves the problem of initial removal, but not long term maintenance.

Because of the slopes and the need to maneuver around trees, I am fairly sure a conventional CUT would not be a good choice (although a PTO driven chipper would be nice).

I have looked at Ventrac, but am concerned about the price and the ground clearance. To get a Ventrac with rough cut mower, loader, etc is quite a lot - and they do not have a grapple for the loader which I think I would need a lot.

That has lead me to Power Trac, which seems to have what I need at a better price. I am able to maintain the equipment myself, as I am mechanically inclined. However, I have some specific questions about operation on slopes:

- Would a 425 or 1430 be able to handle 15-25 degrees, with an occasional 30 degree slope safely?
- Does PT offer, or has anyone put duals on a 425 or 1430 (I know the extreme slope mowers have them standard)
- What slope are the engines rated for?

Also, for the specific application of cutting the larger honeysuckle close to the ground, I would be interested in either buying or fabricating something like a tree saw that fits on skid steers (e.g. Turbo Saw). The largest that the honeysuckle can get is around 4" in diameter. It should be able to cut the stem flush with the ground, so a blade similar to a stump grinder blade turned 90 degrees, that can tolerate that would be ideal. Has anybody found or thought or created something like that?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ponytug]

Have a look around the forum- I think that you will find that PTs will do pretty well. I think you may need to decide how badly you want to be on those 30 degree slopes, and for how long, and in what direction. i.e. could you drive down them? Power-Trac can tell you what the current limits are on the various tractors- oil level in the sump becomes a limiting issue for the gasoline engines.

The general problem with widening the stance on any tractor is that it overloads the bearings on the wheels or wheel motors.

I have the 1445, and my brush mower takes 4" oak and chops it. There is a small stump 2-3" high, but it gets fractured and they rot pretty quickly. I have mowed larger softwood and poison oak. Personally, I suspect you can just mow the honeysuckle. I don't think that you will need much in the way of herbicide, which will help the regrowth. Flail mowers are nice in that you can mow close to property lines and buildings, whereas with the brush mower, you have to be concerned about how far debris will be flung. Flail mowers are nice also that what is left over will be reduced to chips pretty readily, and can just be left as is where is.

I can't over emphasize how great it is to be able to drive the mower over brush before the tractor goes over it.

I have seen the Turbo Saw, and I think that unless you are trying to clear former prairie, I suspect that you will be disappointed.

With two small creeks, I would be a little concerned about traction on wet or muddy slopes. PTs are great, but they do need soil that has enough integrity to provide traction.

All the best,

Peter

 

[JonFields]

Thanks for the feedback. The 30 degree slopes are the exception, so it's typically just a few passes up/down (not sideways). I can always handle them manually... I'll see if I can get more precise operating limits from PT.

Sounds like the PT brush mower would be able to mow a lot of the honesuckle vs cutting it at the base. Again the 4" is the exception, not the norm. Most is in the 1-2" range. However, it does get 10-15' high. Nasty stuff it is, choking out all of the native hardwoods.

The practice of spraying is generally accepted here, as the non-native honeysuckle retains its foliage in the Fall longer than any of the native plants. So after the first hard frost in late November, you can spray the honeysuckle foliage with little collateral damage, because everything else is dormant. The benefit is that it reduces honeysuckle regrowth dramatically, and the stems become more brittle and easier to cut after a few months. It's probably not necessary, but it does have some benefits.

I agree that the front-mounted configuration of the PT is great. IMO the only thing lacking vs a conventional CUT is the ability to run a PTO chipper.

Again, thanks for the info.

Jon

 

[MossRoad]

Welcome to TBN! :thumbsup:

I have a 2001 model year PT425 with their 48" brush cutter. I can tell you it will eat anything up to 1.5" in diameter. Anything larger that is solid, such as hard Oak, and you're pushing your luck as to how much damage you want to inflict on your own equipment, VS getting off and using a chainsaw. Sure, I've hacked away at 2.5" and larger trees and I've also lost several blades doing it... and that's quite dangerous. Their brush cutter has a design flaw, in that the swinging blades can hit the mounting bolts for the blades themselves. Do that a bunch of times and the bolt head breaks off and the blade goes flying. A couple pounds of steel flying 30-40' is not fun. So I don't abuse it.

As for slopes, my 2001 has a Kohler engine and the oiling system is rated for 25 degrees. Anything more and you could potentially starve the engine of oil. I recall reading the current Robin engine was rated for 20 degrees continuous use, but don't quote me on that. 30 degrees for long periods of time is out of the spec for lubrication. I have no idea of the specs on the 1430.

With all that said, what's nice about the PT is the quick attach feature. You can pop un-powered implements (like buckets, forks, etc...) off and on in 15 seconds without leaving the seat. Powered implements like mowers and stump grinders require the operator to hook up a couple hydraulic hoses, so add 30 seconds for that task. What this speed of implement change does for you is make the machine a Swiss Army knife. You sill actually look forward to changing attachments often, especially if you've ever dealt with a conventional tractor's 3 point hitch.

So, you use the brush cutter to clear as much undergrowth as possible first. Then you put on your grapple bucket and bend over any bushes that were too big for the brush cutter. Then you hack off the stumps with the stump grinder. Then you use your grapple bucket again to move the debris to a burn pile. Then put on your brush cutter and mow the area one more time. And all that's left is wood chips on the ground. :thumbsup:

As for duals on the smaller machines, as Ponytug mentioned, it could increase the side load on the wheel motor bearings if you get the outer edges of the tires on each side up on something. I believe my footprint on the PT425 is 42". If I put on dual tires 10" wide each, plus the spacers between the rims at 1", I'd be looking at 64" wide footprint. That's over a 50% increase. I recall a couple people on here running duals on a 425 years ago, but I don't recall who or if it created any problems. Maybe they'll chime in.

As for the Ventrac... its a better machine in several aspects. Its a better lawnmower for sure. And its loader lifts higher than the PT425. However, its only a 5 cubic foot bucket. The large material bucket on the PT400 series is 10 cubic feet. And the PT has a heavier lift capacity. And I don't think you can have the mower on if you have the loader on, but could be mistaken. And there's a few more things. Best to make a Pros VS Cons Sheet of your own and compare them.

Haven't seen a horizontal blade stump grinder type thing for sawing brush, but have often thought about making one. However, I've found that for the few times I'd need one, the chainsaw works just fine and was only $199.

 

[MossRoad]

Click on my little tractor icon in my signature and that'll take you to a page with links to some old (very old) videos of my PT425 in action. Maybe that'll help. There's one of a multiflora rose that was probably 15' in diameter with multiple stems. In the fall, it was nothing for the PT425. It just snapped off and was ground to bits.

I had a video of me mowing 13'+ high weeds in a field, but is gone now. Anyhow, the canopy on the PT425 is about 5'5" high. I stood on top of it. I'm 6' tall, and I could not reach the tops of the weeds. I mowed them down in a single pass with the PT425 and 48" brush cutter no problem.

 

[JonFields]

Thanks MossRoad, lots of very good information. I don't know if you have honeysuckle up there, but in Southwest Ohio it has taken over. The technique that you describe should work well. If the honeysuckle has been killed in the Fall, the stems get brittle and it should be even easier to cut.

I've concluded that attempting to fit duals on a machine that has not been designed to accept them is a bad idea. And, I don't have that many 30 deg slopes to warrant it. They can be handled in other ways.

The horizontal blade saw idea came about because I've been manually flush cutting the stuff with a Stihl brush cutter so I can mow over it without catching the stump - it is an extension of that. But your technique seems to render that unnecessary.

I'm not sure that PT will replace my zero-turn for "finish mowing" whereas Ventrac could do this. Any experience using PT for regular lawn mowing?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[MossRoad]

Yes, I have a 60" finish mower for the PT425. Its a very good mower, but not a great mower. I don't have a show lawn, so its fine for us. It is rear discharge and leaves a windrow on the right side. That can be compensated for by mowing in a counter-clockwise manner from the center out or a clockwise manner from the outside in. There is no way to attach a bagger (although someone hand-fabricated one many years ago here, on TBN). So leaf pickup is no good, unless you have a tow-behind sweeper or vacuum. If you already have a zero-turn, I'd suggest you save the $1500 on the PT mower deck and use that towards the price of a different attachment for your needs.

There's videos of my mower on that page I mentioned as well. I have about 3/4 acres of grass I mow with it and am still very happy after 15 years.

We have honeysuckle. Its been here since I was a kid. What we have has the little red squishy berries in the fall. Its a bush, not a vine, right?

 

[woodlandfarms]

I have the 1850 slope tractor. There are three of us in this forum who are active and dually owners.

the whole PT lineup is pretty impressive, it does everything pretty well, none of it perfect, but it does so much and so easily it is worth it.

IMO Horsepower is key, so I would be looking at the 1430 over the 425. This is not to speak ill of it, I am impressed as all heck at what the 425 owners do,

Right now I am running singles, so in many respects i have a roided out 1430 (bigger engine, same sort of chasis and lift). Its different having only 4 wheels, you turn quicker, you don't get hung up as much, but with the training wheels off you are a bit more nervous on your steep slopes.

One thing about 30 degrees, it gets slippery at those angles. Make sure you have an out at the bottom in case you decide to slide. If not, take it easy the first time as you set your boundries.

 

[MossRoad]

Regarding the power of the 425 VS the 1430...

As Tim Taylor says...



I like to get the largest HP engine I can in the frame size that I choose. This goes for cars, trucks, and lawn mowers! :laughing:

I needed the frame size of the 400 series so that's why I went with the 425. When I added it up, I was paying the exact same dollar per horsepower when comparing the 418, 422 and 425. If I could have gone with a larger size frame of the 1430, I'd probably have gone with the larger engined 1845 but single wheeled it, although I'd have to seriously think about it as its twice the price. But there are some places on my property that might be handy. Anywho, pick the frame size carefully. I needed to get into and out of 48" gates in my yard, the Little League park, the church grounds, etc.... and also drive it into the bed of my pickup truck. The 400 series was only 42" wide, so that's why I went with that size. I've never regretted it for our needs, but sometimes it would be nice to drag a big log out of the woods without having to cut it in half.

 

[JonFields]

Thanks all for the good input. I appreciate it and it is very helpful.

MossRoad, yes the honeysuckle is the bush type with red berries in the Fall - Amur Honeysuckle to be exact. It's taken over the woodlands in our area. Nothing grows underneath it.

My current Z-turn handles the finish mowing and leaf mulching in the fall (with mulch kit) very well. It has a proven Kawasaki engine. The only thing it cannot handle is a strip of 20 degree finish turf on the down slope of the driveway, and an area around a culvert. I currently mow that by hand, but I want that to change. The knuckle boom mower might be a solution, but its a bit pricey...

It's hard to say whether a 4xx series frame or a 14xx frame is what I need. I don't have any width constraints, and I won't be transporting, so it seems the 14xx would be the better choice. The only downside is extra weight which reduces stability on slopes. The flail mower is only an option on 1445 and up, which puts it out of my budget.

There aren't that many 30 degree slopes, they aren't that long, and have flat areas top and bottom. So a straight, fairly short run up or down can handle them. In other areas of the forum, I've seen suggestions to add chains to avoid slipping, which seems to be a good idea. As with anything, practice makes perfect, so figure out what works and stick with it.

I could always fit the PT with Mattracks. That would be an interesting combination...

Thanks again!

 

[woodlandfarms]

Saddly the Mattracks won't fly due to the way the PT turns. It has been discussed, and all of us drool over the thought.

 

[MossRoad]

I'm guessing you'd be disappointed with the boom mower for the 400 series. I've looked at it, and it just seems to be hanging out there and awkward to use. No personal experience. All just an eyeball guess. The larger one for the 1430 looks beefier and better balanced, but wow, that's expensive. I'd have to see it in person and operate it in some conditions before committing that kind of money.

Mattracks! Yeah, we've all drooled over those. :drool:

As Woodlandfarms says, they won't work due to that articulation of the machine. If you turn left, the left tires get closer together and vice versa. They may hit each other when nearing full steering lock side-to-side.

Which brings up a good time to mention the PT Pucker if you haven't already heard about it.

When a center articulated machine turns side-to-side, its center of gravity shifts. Greatly. And since the Power Tracs have stupid strong hydraulics, they can easily lift the rear of the machine off the ground if you have too large of a load on the FEL arms, like, oh, say, a bucket load of bricks to drop into the bed of your aluminum Ford. So you remove a few bricks, and a few more until you can now lift the bucket full of bricks without the rear end coming off the ground. And off you go down the driveway to your truck. As you approach the truck, you make a turn to one side and the machine tips forward on its nose, the bucket hits the ground and the rears come off the ground again. And you go and change your shorts cause the first time it happens to you it scares the poop out of you. :laughing:

We've all done it (tipped the tractor forward, not pooped our pants), but its something to be aware of. As you turn the machine from straight, it gets shorter, and the center of gravity shifts towards the side you are turning towards and away from the rear of the machine towards the front. As long as the bucket is only a few inches or a foot off the ground, its no big deal as it stops when the bucket hits the ground. But should you have the bucket high when moving, and you turn the wheel, the unit can and will tip forward violently and then you'll be wearing the steering wheel in your stomach, as the seat will flip forward with you buckled in it. And then maybe you'll smack the joystick into float and slam back down.

- So never travel with the bucket raised more than necessary.
- Always be aware of the PT Pucker factor.
- Know that the center of gravity changes as you turn the machine.
- Always wear your seat belt, always.

Best thing to do is soon after getting a machine like this, load up the bucket to the point where it will lift the rear off the ground, then remove some load until it sits. Then turn the wheel and experience the tip for yourself.

There's a link to a video on my website about moving a big log. It shows the right, rear coming off the ground and me not even noticing. Check it out.

Many times I've been working hard in the woods prying out stumps, lifting logs, etc... and looked to my right or left only to see the rear of the tractor sitting next to me, not behind me. You don't notice it because the operator is sitting on the front half of the machine and you don't feel the rear swinging.

 

[Egon]

For the steep areas another consideration.

 

[JonFields]

Thanks for the safety info. I take all that very seriously, take things slow, and don't take chances. Even being careful, one morning I went a little too far with my Z-turn and slide down a dew-covered slope. That scared me, and that same summer there was a very bad accident involving a Z-turn in our town, so I am scared enough to not take ANY chances at this point.

 

[JonFields]

As for the boom mower, yes it's quite pricey. However, if it worked, it could keep me off many of the slopes. The slopes are long, aren't that high, and there is flat land at the top and bottom. (They were formed by the creeks.) I could work from top and bottom. I've seen people use mini-excavators and boom mowers in a similar manner... Ultimately, I need to ask PT what their machines are rated for, and go from there....

On the Mattracks, I was only half serious, but I did wonder about the articulation and them touching. Makes you wonder how this can work on the BCS articulated tractor:

M3 Series - BCS Invictus K4��

As far as the Agria walk-behind brush mower.... I have seriously considered something like that too, and may still. I used to have a BCS walk behind tiller that could take different attachments, similar to the Agria. BCS is available in the US; I don't know about the Agria. There is also a purpose built walk behind like the Brown Brush Ox or Billy Goat. However, if I can find something that I can ride, that would be preferred as I am on the down side toward 60....

And on the topic of BCS, Agria etc, that brings me to my gripe about how the European market has so many more equipment choices for small loaders and articulated FWD tractors than we have. Avant, MultiOne, BCS, Antonio Carraro, etc. I don't understand why there isn't more of a market for these in the US. The ones that are imported are either very expensive and/or have limited in availability/service/attachments. The only domestic counterpart seems to be PT or Ventrac, with the latter being more for turf. There is the Gehl AL140, which used to just be a re-branded Avant, but it is $28K to start. It seems that the US market is limited to the conventional CUT design and nothing else.

I do like the simplicity and heavy-duty construction of PT. It reminds me of the original Wheel Horse (before sold to Toro). I still have my Dad's early 80s Wheel Horse and use it all the time. I can easily service it myself, and with proper maintenance it, and the old cast-iron Kohler will probably run as long as I can find parts....

 

[ponytug]

That's the advantage of the PT- they are very simple.

Europe has so many more because they have so many more small land holdings that are still profitable. Aside from specialty production, like say wasabi, most US farms have gone for economies of scale, and therefor large equipment.

I'm thankful to have Power-Trac, and very thankful to have my 1445. It has kept me safe on slopes and able to keep a small property maintained and improved.

If you know one end of a screwdriver from the other, I suspect that you will fall in love with the PT- most of us have.

All the best, Peter

 

[SpringHollow]

I bought the large boom mower for mine and never used it - I bought exactly for wiping out honey suckle, russian olive, and multiflora rose. The larger stems would be pushing its capability which is why I never used it. It really is meant for grass and weeds. I am looking at the chain saw attachments for larger trimmers for this purpose. I use glyphosate as well as basal bark herbicide on the multiflora rose and grape vines. I am at the point where I will start on the honeysuckle etc - currently, I will hit small ones. My bush hog would mow them down no problem but the I would be wiping out all of the small trees etc near them as well.

The Shindaiwa multi tool and a couple of their brush cutters accept their articulating chainsaw attachment and you can buy a stubby pole as well for them.

Ken

 

[SpringHollow]

Actually, not sure if they articulate - the sickle bar attachments do but I do not think the chainsaws do. The sickle bar would be hard pressed to do 1" or more.

If someone knows of an articulated chainsaw pole saw, please let me know since that would make ot easier to cut at ground level.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

... Makes you wonder how this can work on the BCS articulated tractor:

M3 Series - BCS Invictus K4��

...

My guess is the machine either doesn't articulate as far as the Power Trac, OR, the sections aren't as close to each other as the Power Trac, OR, they hit each other and the manufacturer isn't telling us that. :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

Im not sure what you mean by articulated chainsaw. Got anymore info?