Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders

[kcender]

As a matter of interest I have noticed that the orientation of the lift cylinders on the L39 are opposite to the L45.I have noticed this difference on other machines but don't know if there is a specific reason why.One thing about the L45 orientation is it more easily allows for the installation of a safety lock for working on the tractor with the loader raised.I made one for my L45 as they don't come with one.The newer L47 comes with the safety lock.

 

[mike69440]

Hmmm, I never noticed the loader cylinders being oreintated end of end 180 deg on the L45. other than what you mentioned, I don't think it makes much difference
A loader Lock is a good idea. On the L39 the Loader Lock is just a lock on the Joystick.

Can you Post some Photo's and get me some dimensions?

PS

I want to stay metric sizing on these cylinders, as 5mm and 10mm jumps in size are a lot better than 1/4" and 1/2" increments. Typically Sizes run 32mm, 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, 50mm, 60mm, 70mm, 80mm, 100mm, etc.

Inch sizes run 1.5in (38.1mm), 2" (50.8mm), 2.5" (63.5mm) 3" (76.2mm) 3.5" (88.9mm), 4" (101.6mm), etc.

For instance jumping from 2"cylinder to a 2-1/2" cylinder is a jump of 56%. That is too much of a bump in capacity and results in the loader running really slow.

 

[kcender]

Here are some photos of the boom lock.The main part is made of 2 1/2 by 1/4 flat bar.The tolerances for this are quite tight and it took more time to make it than I anticipated.There is not a lot of room for error so that it doesn't bind throughout the full range of motion.If you want more info just let me know.

 

[mike69440]

Here are some photos of the boom lock.The main part is made of 2 1/2 by 1/4 flat bar.The tolerances for this are quite tight and it took more time to make it than I anticipated.There is not a lot of room for error so that it doesn't bind throughout the full range of motion.If you want more info just let me know.

I just have to ask:
Is your pretty L45 still that shiny? It looks like it has less than 1 hour on the meter and you just waxed it. I can vaguely remember when my L39 looked similar. Not so much now. The closest thing I have to a new tractor is my little red tractor. Note in one of my pictures a loader lock would have been the safe thing to do. You did a nice job. I know any project involving modifying a tractor often turns out more than expected. A least I'm not sticking a ladder in the bucket so I can cut tree limbs.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...387-weak-loader-curl-possible-solution-2.html

 

[rScotty]

Yes I agree however, I'm not using the Accumulator like you would in a large excavator., The one on the L39 has a 16 oz. working capacity just to reduce shock.
It's tucked away under the frame.

When the tractor was new I was robbing some gravel down the road, and while traveling back hit some potholes that caused such a pressure spike, ruined the quad seal rings on the main pump. It was covered under warrantee, as they may have not been installed correctly originally. I now drive slower and the tiny accumulator really helps.

I agree. The loader arms & pins, the hydraulics, and the tractor itself can probably stand a reasonable increase in cylinder size or pressure a lot easier than they can withstand the shock that comes from hitting a bump in the road at speed with a load in the bucket. An accumulator can help there, but slowing down works too.
Our construction JD 310 has the optional "easy ride" swith on the dashboard for transport with a full bucket. I haven't looked, but that option may be no more than a solenoid valve and an accumulator. Simply putting the solenoid valve in the fitting to the accumulator gives options for nearly no additonal cost or complexity. With the flip of a switch you can either have a time delay to spread out the shock - or not. Your choice.

Most large ag dealers can direct you to a local small shop that makes decent custom cylinders. They are pretty common in Ag country. Inexpensive and made to your specs. There's one within walking distance of the JD dealer right down the road.
luck, rScotty

 

[mike69440]

I have a price on 10 setes of loader lift and bucket cylinders custom made to fit the TL1000 Loader.
L39 Curl $400/Set of 2.
L39 Lift $440/Set of 2
Does not include shipping

I would suspect Kubota increased cylinder size even though increasing capacity would load up that fragile grand L front Axle, where the L45/L47 have up-rated axles. Unless the later L39 had their axles upgraded also?

Considering that Kubota prices for OEM Price for L39 Cylinders are:
Per Messicks
CYLINDER BOOM LIFT PN 7J800-63013 $661.89 ea.
Old style Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J800-64010 $575.56 ea.
New style Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J803-64010 $877.71 ea.
Per MB Tractor
The L45 TL-1000A2 & A@V & Cylinders are
CYLINDER,BOOM RH LIFT PN 7J803-63022 $944.95 ea.
CYLINDER,BOOM LH LIFT PN 7J803-63012 $944.95 ea.
Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J803-64010 7J803-64010 $873.35 ea.
So it appears that Kubota is selling the larger L45 Cylinder as a replacement for the L39 original cylinder. This is same size as I was quoted.

The Price I recieved is a good price. My problem is I do not need 10 sets

I have to assume that the new curl cylinder bore is 65mm vs the 60 MM OEM original.

 

[mike69440]

I have a price on 10 setes of loader lift and bucket cylinders custom made to fit the TL1000 Loader.
L39 Curl $400/Set of 2.
L39 Lift $440/Set of 2
Does not include shipping

I would suspect Kubota increased cylinder size even though increasing capacity would load up that fragile grand L front Axle, where the L45/L47 have up-rated axles. Unless the later L39 had their axles upgraded also?

Considering that Kubota prices for OEM Price for L39 Cylinders are:
Per Messicks
CYLINDER BOOM LIFT PN 7J800-63013 $661.89 ea.
Old style Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J800-64010 $575.56 ea.
New style Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J803-64010 $877.71 ea.
Per MB Tractor
The L45 TL-1000A2 & A@V & Cylinders are
CYLINDER,BOOM RH LIFT PN 7J803-63022 $944.95 ea.
CYLINDER,BOOM LH LIFT PN 7J803-63012 $944.95 ea.
Curl CYLINDER BUCKET PN 7J803-64010 7J803-64010 $873.35 ea.
So it appears that Kubota is selling the larger L45 Cylinder as a replacement for the L39 original cylinder. This is same size as I was quoted.

The Price I recieved is a good price. My problem is I do not need 10 sets

I have to assume that the new curl cylinder bore is 65mm vs the 60 MM OEM original.

The Price I received is a good price. My problem is I do not need 10 sets

I have to assume that the new curl cylinder bore is 65mm vs the 60 MM OEM original.[/QUOTE]

I am kind of surprised I have not had any takers.

In any case I would have to raise my Price,

For Upsized.
L39 Curl $525/Set of 2. (66 mm Bore) These would also fit a L45, however the L45 cylinders are already larger than the L39, so the gain on a L45 would be only 3%.
Still a fracton of the cost of a TL1000A Kubota replacement, should a replacement be needed.

L39 Lift $570/Set of 2. (60 mm Bore) (Note: Lift Cylinders are not a direct fit for the L45, as Kubota reversed their orientation on the L45's TL1000A vs. the L39's TL1000.

I had custom cylinders priced at local shops, $1200 & $1,800 respectively, so if I'm in this alone, I will import.

I have a way of upping the curl cylinders on my Mahindra that is not expensive. Wish I could say the same for the L39.

 

[rScotty]

Here are some photos of the boom lock.The main part is made of 2 1/2 by 1/4 flat bar.The tolerances for this are quite tight and it took more time to make it than I anticipated.There is not a lot of room for error so that it doesn't bind throughout the full range of motion.If you want more info just let me know.

Nice work, although I can't see from the photos how it pins into the "locked" position... Or is it held by compressive force?
rScotty

 

[kcender]

It is held by compressive force.Although it will work with the bucket on I take it off first.It weighs about 600 pounds so it would add a lot of force to the lock.I thought about drilling it and using the retaining pin to act as a safety,when in the up position, but didn't feel it was necessary.

 

[rScotty]

It is held by compressive force.Although it will work with the bucket on I take it off first.It weighs about 600 pounds so it would add a lot of force to the lock.I thought about drilling it and using the retaining pin to act as a safety,when in the up position, but didn't feel it was necessary.

If you ever want a more positive lock, there might just barely be enough room to drill both sides of the latch as shown. It makes a handy place for storing the pin when in the safety-locked mode.
rScotty

 

[mike69440]

Re: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders, Started my L39 2000 Hr Hyd. Overhaul

This was the motivating factor.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-l39-tlb-bh1000-control-valve.html?highlight=
I disassembled the control valve to see if there was a valve problem and found all was good.
I checked that I am getting pressure, so I must have a swing cylinder piston leak.

 

[mike69440]

Update: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders, Started my L39 2000 Hr Hyd. Overhaul

I am having thw BT1000 Trunion Swing Cylinders rebuild, after sustaining piston damage in one swing cylinder.

I am using the guts from the loader curl cylinder and original rod from the lift cylinder to build a 60mm bore lift cylinder, upsized from the OEM 55 Mm bore. This alone will provide 19% more lift.
Factoring in I have the relieve set at a bit over 3000 Psig should give the lift capacity at ground level near 4,000 Lbs.

For the bucket curl cylinder I am importing from the UK a 66mm custom sized cylinder that will provide near 32% additional curl force.

If you think that is too much, note that I upgraded my Max 28 Mahindra curl cylinders with Mahindra curl cylinders form their 1526 tractor and gained 62% force. The bucket moves noticeably slower, but is not terribly slow. The Larger pump of the L39 will compensate a lot for the increased cylinder volume, as the loader on these commercial machines are relatively fast and strong compared to the general use farm tractors.

The L39 upgrade will also include new bushings and some new pins as well as some weld repair/reinforcement.

This is not going to be cheap, as the rebuild/upgrade turning out to be at least twice as costly as I anticipated, but I plan on keeping the machine for another 2000 hours.

Like i now operate the Mahindra, I'll do most of my L39 loader work in 2WD except in real slippery stuff to save the front axles drive components.

At +8,000 lbs operating weight, you will have trouble finding a tractor in it's size range anywhere as strong or capable.

 

[rScotty]

Re: Update: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders, Started my L39 2000 Hr Hyd. Over

I am having thw BT1000 Trunion Swing Cylinders rebuild, after sustaining piston damage in one swing cylinder.

I am using the guts from the loader curl cylinder and original rod from the lift cylinder to build a 60mm bore lift cylinder, upsized from the OEM 55 Mm bore. This alone will provide 19% more lift.
Factoring in I have the relieve set at a bit over 3000 Psig should give the lift capacity at ground level near 4,000 Lbs.

For the bucket curl cylinder I am importing from the UK a 66mm custom sized cylinder that will provide near 32% additional curl force.

If you think that is too much....SNIP.......

The L39 upgrade will also include new bushings and some new pins as well as some weld repair/reinforcement.

Sounds like you are having fun with the project. No idea here if it is "too much". But I do recall a couple of pages back in this thread you posted a spreadsheet you made comparing loader and cylinder dimensions and forces. Why not update that spreadsheet to show what the effect of thinner cylinder walls and increased pressure will be? After all, that's what computers are for; you've already got it half way set up. Or maybe you've already done that.
It seems like three or four more columns in the spreadsheet ought to do it. Pin stress, cylinder wall stress, and longitudinal buckling forces. Hmm.....probably ought to do that last one in the extended position for worst case.
Go for it! & good luck,
rScotty

 

[mike69440]

Re: Update: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders, Started my L39 2000 Hr Hyd. Over

Sounds like you are having fun with the project. No idea here if it is "too much". But I do recall a couple of pages back in this thread you posted a spreadsheet you made comparing loader and cylinder dimensions and forces. Why not update that spreadsheet to show what the effect of thinner cylinder walls and increased pressure will be? After all, that's what computers are for; you've already got it half way set up. Or maybe you've already done that.
It seems like three or four more columns in the spreadsheet ought to do it. Pin stress, cylinder wall stress, and longitudinal buckling forces. Hmm.....probably ought to do that last one in the extended position for worst case.
Go for it! & good luck,
rScotty

Between my day job and project, TBN is about my only goof off time.

I already checked buckling form published data on similar cylinders, and from experience on by Hydraulic thumb on my excavator, it's 3" bore clyinder will bend or break a mild steel 1' Dia pin, but the hardened pin I replaced it with hols up so far fine, thus I'm not so worried about the 30mm Pins on the L39.
If I was doing this repeatedly & often I'd bother to put together a stress, buckling, forces, etc. spread sheet, but between cars tractors, solar project, welding, carpentry, equipment repair, trail building, and trying to make some time to get the bikes running again, I'll do my engineering calculations at work.

 

[mike69440]

Re: Update: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loadefor my L39 Overhaul

My up-sized Hydraulic cylinders for the Loader curl function are finally back from the shop.

The loader will be put together just in time to mount the Fisher plow. I might as well just put on the snow chains also.

I have the rebuilt BH swing cylinder and the up-sized 60mm Loader curl cylinders installed. Loader Lift OEM cylinders were 55 mm. Changing to 60mm increases hydraulic lift 19%
The 65mm up-sized from 60mm bucket curl cylinders will provide additional 26% curl force, handy for breaking out of a dirt pile. I have also set the hydraulic pressure a bit over 3000 psi. I'll keep it in 2wd, so not to over-stress the front axle while digging.
I've also up sized the bucket curl cylinders in my Mahindra Max28 and found it now digs better in 2WD than it did in 4WD with the OEM bucket cylinders. The Max28 has the loader capacity of a small l series Kubota.
The L39 should have the lift capacity of the old L48, maybe not an M59 , but close enough.

 

[mike69440]

Re: Upsized Hydraulic Clyinders for Loaders, Weld, Paint and Bolt up.

I noticed into a bit of a problem when I fitted the loader curl cylinders to the compensating links that go from the Rod end eyes to the QA.

Right side fit fine, but the let side cylinder angled to the left. I was going to give the cylinder shop an ear full, thinking that the pin ends were not bored square, but trying swapping the good fitting cylinder on the right to the left, same results?
Flipping the cylinder over same results.
Since new, the Kubota's boom loader pin holes were not aligned. The slop in the pin holes was allowing the loader to work all those years. So that explains the rub marks where the comp link and the QA touched. With the rebuild and tight fitting pins, I have a situation where the comp pink binds and puts side load on the cylinders piston rod. As this creates a situation that promotes rod buckling and premature seal failure i needed to fix it.
What a pain. I cut off the pin bushing on the loader boom, egged out the hole a bit wit a die grinder and used a come along to bend the other boom pin bracket. The shadow in the photo makes it look what I had to elongate more than it actually is. I removed less than 1/32" of metal.
Once I reweld the bushing, paint and assemble, I be ready to put the L39 back to work.

Problem is I already fitted the rear snow chains and that work will be pushing snow. Yuck.

 

[mike69440]

Re: Up sized Hydraulic Cylinders for Loaders, Back together

Well, The L39 is finally back together. Loader bucket and QA is all bolted up and painted nice orange.

Maybe I should change the decal on the Loader to TL1300 now, as it actually will lift 1300 Kg. In my case the 1300 Kg rating is close to a true lift capacity 500mm forward of the pins, not at the pins., Naw, why brag.

I have a weeping hydraulic hose to replace, and out to change the engine oil before the snow hits. What a relief to get this over with!
Maybe I have time to do a little dirt work before I hang on the Snow plow.

During the loader rebuild I replaced some go the beat out loader bushings with 30 mm shaft collars from:

MISUMI USA Customer Service
MISUMI USA: Industrial Configurable Components Supply
e-mail: inquire@misumiusa.com
Phone: (800) 681-7475

FYI
One thing I found out the at the bucket dump circuit is always in regeneration mode. This is why the dump cycle is so fast.

The good thing about this is that regen discourages back dragging with the front edge of the bucket. Back dragging with the front edge of a bucket beats the crap out of your loaded. Don't ask how I know.

The bad part is if your stuck in mud, etc. the bucket does not have a lot of force to roll back and move you forward.

 

[rScotty]

Re: Up sized Hydraulic Cylinders for Loaders, Back together

Well, The L39 is finally back together.
SNIP
FYI
One thing I found out the at the bucket dump circuit is always in regeneration mode. This is why the dump cycle is so fast.

The good thing about this is that regen discourages back dragging with the front edge of the bucket. Back dragging with the front edge of a bucket beats the crap out of your loaded. Don't ask how I know.

The bad part is if your stuck in mud, etc. the bucket does not have a lot of force to roll back and move you forward.

Congrats on getting the project done. Nothing feels quite as good as wrapping a project up. I didn't know that about the regeneration plumbing and will have to check how the M59 works. Also, the JD310 seems to have an extra detent position on the control for the bucket curl that I haven't yet figured out .... maybe it is selectable regeneration? I kinda wish it didn't do it as it makes the JD310 bucket control lever awkward to use compared to the M59. Definitely time to get out the books and take a look at how modern loaders are plumbed. Seems they are all way more sophisticated than the simple open center systems I've designed in the past. None of the JD310 TLB operator's manuals mention regeneration by name - but they do kind of hint at loader capabilities that sound similar.

Hmm.....We do a lot of back dragging on our land. Glad you brought it up, but that's a different subject. I'll start a new thread on backdragging if anyone wants.
Again, good work on the cylinders. Keep us posted as you use the capabilities.
rScotty

 

[mike69440]

Re: Up sized Hydraulic Cylinders for Loaders, Back together

Congrats on getting the project done. Nothing feels quite as good as wrapping a project up. I didn't know that about the regeneration plumbing and will have to check how the M59 works. Also, the JD310 seems to have an extra detent position on the control for the bucket curl that I haven't yet figured out .... maybe it is selectable regeneration? I kinda wish it didn't do it as it makes the JD310 bucket control lever awkward to use compared to the M59. Definitely time to get out the books and take a look at how modern loaders are plumbed. Seems they are all way more sophisticated than the simple open center systems I've designed in the past. None of the JD310 TLB operator's manuals mention regeneration by name - but they do kind of hint at loader capabilities that sound similar.

Hmm.....We do a lot of back dragging on our land. Glad you brought it up, but that's a different subject. I'll start a new thread on backdragging if anyone wants.
Again, good work on the cylinders. Keep us posted as you use the capabilities.
rScotty

I got to get a new hydraulic hose and do an engine oil change, but my tractor sure looks newer than the +2,000 hours of hard labor it has been exposed to.
I have had a 1/2" section of 2" L angle welded to the back of my bucket since it was new. It is very hard to find 1/2" thick 2" angle. by now it is worn at least 1/2" I bet without it the back of my bucket would be messed up. I also used 1-1/2" L angle 3/8" thick on my little Mahindra.
With the edge, Both the L39 and Max28 do a reasonable job back dragging in the Float position. I Will also grade with the Excavator's dozer blade, but the ex is no dozer, being slow, and tends to gouge. Still the excavator blade is a better dozer than any CUT as blade is 92" wide and can push a pile. My neighbor just bought a 90 HP Kubota CTL, about 12,000 Lbs to do the heavy lifting his L3901 can't. We should team up, and start a landscape company.

PS
If anyone is interested, here is where I bought the Piston and Gland for my 65mm bore loader curl cylinders.
Hydraulic cylinder repair seals and kits-Hercules Sealing Products - Hydraulic Seals and replacement cylinders for construction and many other heavy equipment industries.

Hydraulic cylinder repair seals and kits-Hercules Sealing Products - Hydraulic Seals and replacement cylinders for construction and many other heavy equipment industries.

Hydraulic cylinder repair seals and kits-Hercules Sealing Products - Hydraulic Seals and replacement cylinders for construction and many other heavy equipment industries.


60mm and 70 mm Pistons and Glands are available direct from Kubota.

 

[mike69440]

Up sized Hydraulic Cylinders for Loaders, Back together & had to go play in the mud

Rotten raw day out and almost got stuck dumping over the edge of the hill, even with chains.
I pulled a small stump on the trail I put in this summer on the right side of the pasture with the Max28.
L39 doesn't look bad for +2000 hours, 11 years old.