Well Drilled - Results

   / Well Drilled - Results #131  
... You can get away with that if you don't use much water, like for irrigation. ....

:scratchchin:

Not sure what type of irrigation "doesn't use much water". When we design an irrigation system for a house that uses a well the first thing we do is a "flow test" to determine the GPM the pump is delivering at 35-40 PSI - then we design the system to use most of that amount so the pump will run the entire time the irrigation is on.

When properly done, the system will not cycle.

On those rare wells that "overproduce" for the size yard we have to irrigate - we use the CSV ... because it works!
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #132  
That gives you constant pressure in the house while the well pump is still cycling itself to death. You can get away with that if you don't use much water, like for irrigation. Try that with a heat pump, drip system, or just varied flow irrigation and you would have bought 4 new pumps in 16 years.

The CSV gives you the constant pressure in the house AND keeps the pump from cycling. Saving the pump from all those cycles is what the CSV was designed to do. The fact that is also gives you constant pressure in the house like a regulator is just gravy on top.

As far as I know there's nothing in the pump that is damaged by going on and off. The contacts in the pressure switch eventually wear out, but it hasn't happened yet. I've used it to water the garden with a sprinkler and it's cycled all day once a week in summertime. Hasn't seemed to hurt it. It's only a 1/2 hp pump, maybe it's different with bigger ones.
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #134  
With a pump that small you have to figure out if the "pressure waxes and waned" because the pump is cycling on and off while using water, or if the pressure just stays low because the pump cannot produce enough flow. If the pump is cycling on and off while showering, simply adding a CSV1A will fix that and give you strong constant pressure to the house. If the pump is not cycling, and the pressure just stays low while showering, then you need a larger pump AND a CSV to give you the volume and constant pressure needed.

Keeping in mind that the static level is only 20 feet from the surface, and so the main resistance from pumping water through 385 feet of pipe is friction, how much wouls a CAV1A cost? I certainly don't want to pull up all that pipe and replace the pump.
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #135  
As far as I know there's nothing in the pump that is damaged by going on and off. The contacts in the pressure switch eventually wear out, but it hasn't happened yet. I've used it to water the garden with a sprinkler and it's cycled all day once a week in summertime. Hasn't seemed to hurt it. It's only a 1/2 hp pump, maybe it's different with bigger ones.

Contacts can get pitted. Thrust wear on each start up. Higher amp rates and heat at starting. Tubing movement and power supply line movement. Just a few that come to mind.
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #136  
Not sure what type of irrigation "doesn't use much water".

Sorry I meant 電oesn稚 use much water like if ONLY used in the house and you DON探 have any irrigation.


When we design an irrigation system for a house that uses a well the first thing we do is a "flow test" to determine the GPM the pump is delivering at 35-40 PSI - then we design the system to use most of that amount so the pump will run the entire time the irrigation is on.

When properly done, the system will not cycle.

That is what we call matching the irrigation to the pump, which was the only right way to do it before the CSV. But I would guess that 90% of all irrigation systems are not set up properly like that, and the pump cycles to death.

But with a CSV you can match the irrigation to the yard and not the pump. You can still have a large zone where needed like in the back yard. But you can have a medium size zone in the side yard and a small bubbler or drip system down the front driveway. And the CSV will keep the pressure constant and not let the pump cycle no matter the size of the irrigation zone.

On those rare wells that "overproduce" for the size yard we have to irrigate - we use the CSV ... because it works!

Thanks, yes it works. And there are other benefits from the CSV as well. One is that when you match the irrigation to the pump, you are using all the water the pump can produce. So if you try to take a shower while you are irrigating, the shower and sprinkler pressure will be really low. With the CSV you can downsize the irrigation zones a little bit so you have water left for the house. This way you can take a shower and not even know the sprinklers are running.

The CSV can also be a water saving device. Many times even good irrigators will have to overlap or over water certain areas, just to use enough water to keep the pump from cycling. You don't have to do that with a CSV. You can run only the sprinklers that are needed, which also means you are using only the amount of water that is needed, and nothing is wasted.

As far as I know there's nothing in the pump that is damaged by going on and off. The contacts in the pressure switch eventually wear out, but it hasn't happened yet. I've used it to water the garden with a sprinkler and it's cycled all day once a week in summertime. Hasn't seemed to hurt it. It's only a 1/2 hp pump, maybe it's different with bigger ones.

Burned contacts in the pressure switch are just the first sign that you are cycling the pump too much. EVERYTHING in a pump system is destroyed by cycling. The points in the pressure switch, bladder in the tank, check valve seat, start capacitor and relay, pump shaft and coupling, thrust bearing in the motor, and even the motor windings are all destroyed from the pump cycling on and off.

The smaller the pump the less it cycles and the less cycling hurts the pump. But make no mistake, every time the pump starts it causes damage. The bearing is running dry until the motor gets up to speed, the windings start with high amperage and heat, the torque twist everything around, the motor temp goes from one extreme to the other, and many other problems are created by cycling a pump on and off.

Watering once a week in the summertime is very lightly using the pump compared to someone who waters everyday of the week and all year long.

Keeping in mind that the static level is only 20 feet from the surface, and so the main resistance from pumping water through 385 feet of pipe is friction, how much wouls a CAV1A cost? I certainly don't want to pull up all that pipe and replace the pump.

A CSV1A is only about $200, and I don't know why you would have to pull the pump. Yes the high static level means that friction loss is the main resistance. And that can be a problem. Not having enough resistance, as with a high static level, can cause the impellers to go into an unthrust condition. This causes the top of the impellers to grind off. Not having enough resistance on the pump also causes it to produce more water than you are using, which can make the on/off cycling even worse.

A CSV will keep extra resistance on the pump and prevent it from producing too much water and cycling itself to death. The added resistance of the CSV also eliminates upthrust problems.

Contacts can get pitted. Thrust wear on each start up. Higher amp rates and heat at starting. Tubing movement and power supply line movement. Just a few that come to mind.

Yeah it is a lot like cold starting a car engine. Everything wears a little until the oil gets to circulating. So if you cold started a car engine 100 times per day, the engine would not last as long as if it only started once per day. But you understand that so I am just preaching to the choir here. :) Thanks!
 
   / Well Drilled - Results
  • Thread Starter
#137  
Should I go with the tried & true BRASS pitless adapter or the new stainless steel pitless adapters? 1 1/4" inch

I found an American Granby. It's 304 stainless and NSF/ANSI certified with a 6,000 LB rating capacity.
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #138  
That is what we call matching the irrigation to the pump, which was the only right way to do it before the CSV. But I would guess that 90% of all irrigation systems are not set up properly like that, and the pump cycles to death.

But with a CSV you can match the irrigation to the yard and not the pump. You can still have a large zone where needed like in the back yard. But you can have a medium size zone in the side yard and a small bubbler or drip system down the front driveway. And the CSV will keep the pressure constant and not let the pump cycle no matter the size of the irrigation zone.

Where the CSV really helps is with many of the new "regulations" that restrict what can be watered with what, how much water can be used and what type of irrigation is allowed (spray as opposed to drip) so you HAVE to match the zone to the space and deal with the cycling.

With many of these new regulations a CSV solves so many problems it takes some of the headaches out of installing to keep the inspectors happy. Inspectors do not care if the pump cycles (that is our problem to deal with) they just want you to irrigate how they say.

I have found that the CSV12### line works just fine for most home irrigation systems (I even have one on an apartment complex) and they only cost $63 (free shipping) straight from Cycle Stop
 
   / Well Drilled - Results #139  
Sorry I meant 電oesn稚 use much water like if ONLY used in the house and you DON探 have any irrigation. That is what we call matching the irrigation to the pump, which was the only right way to do it before the CSV. But I would guess that 90% of all irrigation systems are not set up properly like that, and the pump cycles to death. But with a CSV you can match the irrigation to the yard and not the pump. You can still have a large zone where needed like in the back yard. But you can have a medium size zone in the side yard and a small bubbler or drip system down the front driveway. And the CSV will keep the pressure constant and not let the pump cycle no matter the size of the irrigation zone. Thanks, yes it works. And there are other benefits from the CSV as well. One is that when you match the irrigation to the pump, you are using all the water the pump can produce. So if you try to take a shower while you are irrigating, the shower and sprinkler pressure will be really low. With the CSV you can downsize the irrigation zones a little bit so you have water left for the house. This way you can take a shower and not even know the sprinklers are running. The CSV can also be a water saving device. Many times even good irrigators will have to overlap or over water certain areas, just to use enough water to keep the pump from cycling. You don't have to do that with a CSV. You can run only the sprinklers that are needed, which also means you are using only the amount of water that is needed, and nothing is wasted. Burned contacts in the pressure switch are just the first sign that you are cycling the pump too much. EVERYTHING in a pump system is destroyed by cycling. The points in the pressure switch, bladder in the tank, check valve seat, start capacitor and relay, pump shaft and coupling, thrust bearing in the motor, and even the motor windings are all destroyed from the pump cycling on and off. The smaller the pump the less it cycles and the less cycling hurts the pump. But make no mistake, every time the pump starts it causes damage. The bearing is running dry until the motor gets up to speed, the windings start with high amperage and heat, the torque twist everything around, the motor temp goes from one extreme to the other, and many other problems are created by cycling a pump on and off. Watering once a week in the summertime is very lightly using the pump compared to someone who waters everyday of the week and all year long. A CSV1A is only about $200, and I don't know why you would have to pull the pump. Yes the high static level means that friction loss is the main resistance. And that can be a problem. Not having enough resistance, as with a high static level, can cause the impellers to go into an unthrust condition. This causes the top of the impellers to grind off. Not having enough resistance on the pump also causes it to produce more water than you are using, which can make the on/off cycling even worse. A CSV will keep extra resistance on the pump and prevent it from producing too much water and cycling itself to death. The added resistance of the CSV also eliminates upthrust problems. Yeah it is a lot like cold starting a car engine. Everything wears a little until the oil gets to circulating. So if you cold started a car engine 100 times per day, the engine would not last as long as if it only started once per day. But you understand that so I am just preaching to the choir here. :) Thanks!

Thanks, Valveman, I think I'll get one!👍
 
   / Well Drilled - Results
  • Thread Starter
#140  
Just like VFD's have pros and cons, so do CSVs.

Check with your pump manufacturer to make sure a CSV will not void their pump warranty and it will not cause premature damage by adding backpressure to the pump. Remember the fact that a CSV will make your well pump run at full power. A simple way to explain it is that the CSV makes your well pump run at full WOT power while at the same time pressing the brakes like in the car. This can damage some well pumps, plus that's a waste of electricity.

What a CSV is trying to do is mechanically stop the short cycling and uneven water pressure. It's a pressure valve, it's not a computer, it's a simple valve. So it does this by making the well pump go to full power and then it creates backpressure to the pump.

Look, this has been debated ad nauseam. Valveman sells CSV's so he of course is going to promote them. Each CSV he sells, he makes money. I doubt he is 100% unbiased since he has money in the game. I have nothing to gain, I am a consumer,
 

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