Well Drilled - Results

[the old grind]

Pettrix, you have to understand how backpressure reduces load on the pump as uh ad nauseum'ed earlier. Vacuum cleaner (air too), centrifugal, and multistage turbine examples cannot be compared to Positive Displacement pumps that would be horribly mismatched to a CSV as/why you suggest. We have to separate the distinct types (PD, 'vaned').

Somewhere on the CSV site there are videos of demo setups with pressure & amp, gauges. (reminds of the portables we 'built' on in pneumatics & hydraulics classes at MCC) As flow is throttled back (ups bp) there is less flow, movement, sloshing, whatever we imagine is happening ... Motor spins at full rpm (slippage, see torque converter/stall) but ... less work actually being done (than at higher flow) is clearly illustrated by reduced amp draw. btw. my while back example of a VC revving up when throttled is disproportionately skewed because air is compressible & it moves higher vol/hp, but also exaggerates a result of reduce motor load when flow is restricted in a vaned vs PD pump.

A detail that still spooks me is about maintaining cooling flow during any cycle regardless of config (VFD, CSV, both?). I get that when a pump shuts off and flow stops it will soak in it's own heat bubble briefly, that fewer, longer, 'lighter'(?) cycles would alleviate, but I can't imagine a shroud not being a mandatory 'just in case' unless it reduces pump choice by brand or dia/casing fit.

Pettrix, keep your mind open. Catch how & why the CSV really doesn't overwork a submersible pump. I've been there & back with the idea of adding VFD's to two of my shop machines to vary spindle speeds. Complexity is far a bigger deterrent to the upgrade than cost. DIY setup/replace would have you joining forums for help with 100 pg manuals. Pro'ly a service call to have one replaced with markup if you "wouldn't".

I hope this doesn't have to be just one option (both??) all or nothing deal, am following this thread religiously and just myself getting how the CSV does what it proposes. (last nite, finally) I honestly wasn't sold on CSV til now, but guess which one appeals to my 'set & forget' approach?

 

[Xfaxman]

Pettrix, I am a consumer. I have a CSV. Your description of how it operates is not right. You are confusing power with pressure.

Electric centrifugal pumps are not like a car with brakes. The CSV is a pressure regulator, The centrifugal pump develops full pressure, but with low water flow the electrical power used goes down. There is less load on the motor with the flow restricted. The speed or the RPM of the motor is controlled by the 60HZ frequency of the incoming power. Even though the speed of the pump may increase slightly, the amp draw decreases with the flow rate, and is indirectly proportional to the back pressure. Power used = work done.

 

[Egon]

This type of control is pretty common in industry.


[video]http://www.wellwaterproducts.com/categories/Cycle-Stop-Valve/[/video]

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Old Grind, Xfaxman, and Egon! Even though this has been discussed in ad nauseum, I understand why many people just don't get it. Pumps work just the opposite way our minds think they do. Almost everbody thinks restricting a pump with a valve will make it work harder, and reducing the speed of a pump would save energy, although neither of these things are true.

You can always tell when people have been talking to someone who sells VFD's. The old stories of "one foot on the brake and one on the gas", "backpressure will destroy a pump", and "manufacturers will void warranty when using a Cycle Stop Valve" always come up. I always say if that person doesn't understand these simple concepts are not true, they have no business selling or even talking about something as complicated as a VFD.

I always recommend a cooling shroud on any pump where the size of the casing will allow it. Even though the motor manufacturers will say a shroud is not needed, they like to sell motors. It only makes sense that forcing water past the motor would keep it cooler.

I also understand why people who have a VFD or sell VFD's get really angry when I try to explain the facts. It is similar to telling a kid that Santa Claus in not real. They want so badly to believe in these fairytales, that they get very angry with the messanger who tries to tell them the truth.

Sure I make my living selling Cycle Stop Valves. But I don't do it to get rich, I do it because I believe it is the right thing to do. If I was in it for the money, I would be selling $1200-$2000 VFD's instead of a $63 valve. It would be much easier for me to sell $2000 VFD's than a $63 valve, as people really want to believe all the hype about VFD's.

Just look at how much time I have spent on this one thread trying to explain the facts to others. It would be so much easier for me to take advantage of the hype. I could just say "VFD's save energy" and even though that is a lie, many people would just hand me $2000 for a VFD. The thought of "saving energy" makes people feel so good about themselves that they will waste thousands of dollars on devices that cannot deliver on that promise.

 

[Pettrix]

I also understand why people who have a VFD or sell VFD's get really angry when I try to explain the facts. It is similar to telling a kid that Santa Claus in not real. They want so badly to believe in these fairytales, that they get very angry with the messanger who tries to tell them the truth.

Sure I make my living selling Cycle Stop Valves. But I don't do it to get rich, I do it because I believe it is the right thing to do. If I was in it for the money, I would be selling $1200-$2000 VFD's instead of a $63 valve. It would be much easier for me to sell $2000 VFD's than a $63 valve, as people really want to believe all the hype about VFD's.

Nobody gets "angry" so no need to do the hyperbole in order to make your point. From the first posts on this thread, it was YOU who slammed VFD's, it was YOU who kept disparaging VFD, it was YOU who used anecdotal and hyperbole in order to push CSVs.

You came into MY THREAD and railroaded into a pro-CSV and anti-VFD thread. It was MY THREAD that you hijacked in order to sell more CSVs.

It would NOT be easier to sell VFD's because you don't have the same profit margin. The VFD controller price from the manufacturer is set and your mark-up would be minimal. Most of it would be labor. Selling a $10 valve with a 600% markup with NO WARRANTY and no labor is a better marketing plan than selling a controller with maybe a 20% markup and having to include a warranty that covers labor. It's a no-brainer. You make more money selling a CSV.

I am not naive and if you want to sell your CSV's, fine, do it somewhere else, not in my thread. Start your own thread or buy marketing space on this site and sell the valves.

I don't appreciate you hijacking my thread in an attempt to sell more CSVs.

 

[Valveman]

Nobody gets "angry" so no need to do the hyperbole in order to make your point. From the first posts on this thread, it was YOU who slammed VFD's, it was YOU who kept disparaging VFD, it was YOU who used anecdotal and hyperbole in order to push CSVs.

You came into MY THREAD and railroaded into a pro-CSV and anti-VFD thread. It was MY THREAD that you hijacked in order to sell more CSVs.

It would NOT be easier to sell VFD's because you don't have the same profit margin. The VFD controller price from the manufacturer is set and your mark-up would be minimal. Most of it would be labor. Selling a $10 valve with a 600% markup with NO WARRANTY and no labor is a better marketing plan than selling a controller with maybe a 20% markup and having to include a warranty that covers labor. It's a no-brainer. You make more money selling a CSV.

I am not naive and if you want to sell your CSV's, fine, do it somewhere else, not in my thread. Start your own thread or buy marketing space on this site and sell the valves.

I don't appreciate you hijacking my thread in an attempt to sell more CSVs.

I wouldn't want to cross you when you ARE angry. I did hijack your thread and I apologize. But I was just trying to help. I do not see it as advertising, just trying to answer as many of your questions as I can. I am sorry I even answered some you didn't ask.

You are wrong about the markup. A good pump man will make double his cost, plus labor on everything he does. And he is worth it. It isn't an easy or inexpensive business to be in.

I promise not to darken your thread again.

 

[Pettrix]

I wouldn't want to cross you when you ARE angry. I did hijack your thread and I apologize. But I was just trying to help. I do not see it as advertising, just trying to answer as many of your questions as I can. I am sorry I even answered some you didn't ask.

You are wrong about the markup. A good pump man will make double his cost, plus labor on everything he does. And he is worth it. It isn't an easy or inexpensive business to be in.

I promise not to darken your thread again.

Like I said before, I didn't mind you answering and posting, that was never the problem. It was the hijacking and the CSV vs VFD debate you made this thread take shape.

I know it's hard to separate unbiased opinion vs ones drive to sell a product they make and profit off of. It's like going to a Toyota dealership and expecting the dealer to give unbiased opinions on Ford and Mazda vehicles. It won't happen. They have an agenda and a profit to make.

I get it, you don't like VFD's and you manufacturer and sell CSV's. Just don't turn every well thread into a CSV sales pitch. It got old fast. You own and have your own web forum that you can do that at, why do it here?

I appreciate your well advice. Thank you for that.

 

[Haoleguy]

One point that Valveman makes that is rock solid is that a bonafide pump systems expert is invaluable. Most drillers depend on their suppliers or pump reps to make recommendations based on a few facts without a system view,. In my view this is where problems creep in as not any 2 systems and requirements are the same.

Good luck with your system Pettrix.

 

[Pettrix]

Installed the well pump today. Goulds 3HP pump at 480 foot depth.

Static water level was around 210 feet.

Ran the pump and it put out 22GPM (max pump output) for 10-15 minutes and then it dropped to around 19GPM. Kept the pump running for 1 hour and the water level only dropped to 300 feet (used a depth detector device) and the pump was around 19 GPM.

Pump installer said the well pump was maxed out and the well is a very good producing well. He said with a 5HP pump it would probably see 25-30 GPM and probably drop the water level down to maybe 350' - 400'.

He said that it's safe to estimate the well production at 25-30GPM.

 

[Pettrix]

Well installer put in the temporary tank and frost free connection. Once the home is built the tank and controller will be mounted inside a garage. They used a galvanized pipe as seen in the photo.

View attachment 476453

For now, how should I fill in this hole?

I don't want to bury it completely since I will have to excavate it again once the house is built and then I will have to trench a line from the pitless to the home. I put some pea gravel at the bottom. Can I fill the hole with more gravel and then put in a thermal blanket over the pipes and then put a landscape box over it? The frost line in my area is 18".

This way it will be easy to access the pipes when it's time to run the line to the home. I will use 1" PEX to the home.