Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #91  
Good reading, however this post is 15yrs old and PT haven't convinced the tractor buying public that they're the answer. In fact I've never seen or known anyone with one. There are 6 Kubs and JD in our neighborhood though. Don't see the big tractor makers embracing this style of tractor either. So in lieu of PT taking over the world through good design there are some issues that I think tractor makers are slowing moving towards: quick attach implements are on nearly everything now. Easy to mount front snow blowers aren't far behind. What's the next big tractor improvement? realizing that we need more pressure and volume on tractor hydraulics. My tractor, Kub 6060, tops out at about 9 1/2 GPM where a small bobcat starts at 17.5 GPM. The other thing I agree with is that we need a better connection for the 3 pt. Where its at makes sense, what it does makes sense. The PIA of hooking up heavy stuff, makes no sense whatsoever. A std like quick attach built in to all tractors would make implements easier and universal for cat of hitch.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #92  
Having some experience under my belt, I am even more convinced now than I was when I began looking at tractors a year ago that the design of compact tractors, for us weekend diggers as opposed to real farmers, is all wrong. It is a design that has devolved, in an anti-Darwinian fashion, from a series of historical compromises and from blind mimicry of grandpa's agricultural tractor.

Here is a list of the design flaws and the obvious remedies:

1. The 3ph is an abomination. It is an historical industry compromise that, like all compromises, is a mediocrity at best. It is the interface that has launched a thousand hernias (and a googolplex cursewords). It needs to be replaced by the kind of simple, 30-second attachment interface that skidsteers have.

2. Mowers should be on the front of a tractor. This is so for both finish mowers and brush mowers. It is also so for snow blades and snowblowers. Having any of these in the middle or back of the tractor is inefficient, clumsy, and puts you in the hospital for with neck problems in addition to your hernia. The solution is having fully independent attachment interfaces on both ends of the tractor. Thus, for example, you could have the mower on the front and the FEL on the back as your "regular" set-up. This would also have the virtue of eliminating the need for clunky, useless counterweights for the rear of the tractor such as weight boxes, concrete-filled cans or trendy boxblades.

3. This naturally means you should be able to swivel the driver's seat around and drive in either direction. Thereby, your FEL or hoe would then be in front of you for proper operation, with the mower (or other useful implement) then becoming the "rear" counterweight.

4. The power connection to the attachment interfaces should be hydraulic, not mechanical. Just one-second quick-connect couplers. No more dangerous, twirling pto shafts to to catch your lovebead neckaces and choke you to death. No more clumsy, heavy implement shafts. No more lining up splines, or fiddling with collars and buttons.

5. All wheels should be the same size. Small front wheels are (for us weekend diggers) a largely useless artifact of agricultural crop row navigation. Might as well put sundials on tractors. Having equal wheel sizes would have many benefits. There would be a larger tractor footrprint and hence greater overall floatation. There would be less scuffing of lawns and imprinting in soils, and less sinking into wet soils and mud, because it is the small front tires that are the primary culprits in these matters. You could change tire sizes without worrying about differing 4wd circumference ratios between the front and rear wheels. You could fill all four tires for more traction and stability, and be driving an overall more weight-balanced vehicle. You would have better traction in 4wd, which should be significant in mud and snow applications.

6. Because mowing is a primary activity of compact users, these tractors should all articulate. This means they pivot in the middle to promote ease of turning and driving.

7. They should be significantly cheaper than they are. Why should a small compact tractor cost more than a compact car? Tractors are 1930 technology, for goodness sakes, and have relatively few parts. Something is wrong. They are way overpriced.

Having been on sabbatical from this forum for several months, I am pleased to observe that there is now an American-made product that cures most of these problems and meets most of these objectives: the Power-Trac, courageously purchased by Willingtonpizza. Having reviewed the Power-Trac on their website, it is obvious that there is no sane reason anymore to purchase the historically-flawed compact tractor.

You all may disgree with this, of course.
I can't agree more!

I've set about fabricating a piece of equipment for myself. I would disclose more, but I'm hoping to patent/license/sell it after the prototype has been built.

The main disclosable features are-

-reversible operator's station
-superior hillside stability/traction
-adjustable track width

Hopefully, I can post pictures by this time next year!
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #93  
Good reading, however this post is 15yrs old and PT haven't convinced the tractor buying public that they're the answer. In fact I've never seen or known anyone with one. There are 6 Kubs and JD in our neighborhood though. Don't see the big tractor makers embracing this style of tractor either. So in lieu of PT taking over the world through good design there are some issues that I think tractor makers are slowing moving towards: quick attach implements are on nearly everything now. Easy to mount front snow blowers aren't far behind. What's the next big tractor improvement? realizing that we need more pressure and volume on tractor hydraulics. My tractor, Kub 6060, tops out at about 9 1/2 GPM where a small bobcat starts at 17.5 GPM. The other thing I agree with is that we need a better connection for the 3 pt. Where its at makes sense, what it does makes sense. The PIA of hooking up heavy stuff, makes no sense whatsoever. A std like quick attach built in to all tractors would make implements easier and universal for cat of hitch.

This ^^.

Small tractors need better hydraulics so they can run skid steer attachments. I have run my log splitter off my 45 hp bobcat/kioti tractor and even running it hard it was pretty slow(I think about 8-9 GPM). Last week I hooked up my splitter to my 70 HP JCB which has 20+GPM flow and over 3,000 PSI pressure and at idle it was much faster than the bobcat/kioti running at full power.

3 point hitches are ancient technology and although there are QA for the 3 points they still are not as user friendly as modern connections like the SSQA.

Another thing I 'd like to see is a governor as these modern small tractors bog down when they are running something like a chipper and my 60+ year old farmall adjust itself to stay at the same speed when the load changes.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #94  
This ^^.

Small tractors need better hydraulics so they can run skid steer attachments. I have run my log splitter off my 45 hp bobcat/kioti tractor and even running it hard it was pretty slow(I think about 8-9 GPM). Last week I hooked up my splitter to my 70 HP JCB which has 20+GPM flow and over 3,000 PSI pressure and at idle it was much faster than the bobcat/kioti running at full power.

3 point hitches are ancient technology and although there are QA for the 3 points they still are not as user friendly as modern connections like the SSQA.

Another thing I 'd like to see is a governor as these modern small tractors bog down when they are running something like a chipper and my 60+ year old farmall adjust itself to stay at the same speed when the load changes.
Agreed.

Both my old IH454 and IH504 had RPM throttle control.

These new tractors will meter fuel @ WOT, which has the RPM set at just above PTO spec... but I'm with you, as throttle should be a governed RPM setting, not fuel rate.

I think all of this goes back to the original post...

Compact tractors are just that... a shrunken down example of design architecture, that was originally optimized for row cropping efficiency and 1920's technology/economic viability.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #95  
In my opinion,,, the manufacturers of conventional CUTS build them the way they do because that is what the customer expects.

Besides PT, the other unconventional tractor is the Steiner/Ventrac.

The PT, Steiner/Ventrac have one major flaw,,, HIGH COST!
Their volume is so low, they can not get the price down to compete with the overpriced, yet cheaper CUTS.

I live almost next door to the PT company,,, about an hour or so.
The machine has been on display multiple times at the local shopping mall,, over the years.

I doubt PT would be in business today if it were not for the main business that PT is an offshoot of,
underground coal mining machinery.

If you look at the underground mining machine, then look at the PT,,,
you see they clearly copyed their existing machine to create the PT.

This was an easy way for them to get into the PT business,, no long development, simply scale the big machine down.

I have seriously considered a Ventrac as a machine for me,,, it would suit my needs.
Maybe,,, some day??

The stumbling block is that I own a SCUT and a BIG garden tractor.
Those two machines mow perfectly, and do the job with very little need of any service.

Also,,, hydraulics are VERY inefficient,,, it is just in my blood,, but...
I hate wasting 20% of my horsepower to heat, when that horsepower could be doing work.
I have stuck to gear drive, and mechanical PTO power to the mowers because of that.

Hydraulics are convenient,,, but, they are VERY wasteful of horsepower.
I reserve my use of hydraulics for what they do best, backhoe and loader work.
A steady load, like wheel drive, and turning a mower,, I prefer gear drive.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #96  
The absolute worst thing about tractor evolution is the front end loader. Especially ag loaders. A horrible bulky thing and you can't even see the business end And the weight resting on dinky front wheels and the steering axle. Why did they not at least put the loader on the back? Probably to leave the 3ph free. Yet another horrible thing, that 3ph.

I would never in my life buy another Ag style loader. In fairness though. I am guessing it came about merely as a (wonderful) alternative to shoveling animal poop by hand.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #97  
I see plenty of farmers and ranchers moving toward skid steers and compact telehandlers for hay handling because of the reasons mentioned above.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #98  
I'm seeing a few smaller tractors that have Euro styled rear quick hitches on them. I think the best reason to have a rear mower is in dusty conditions you don't eat dust as bad. And you can see hidden things before the mower does. I built a front mount mower for my old yanmar aye so much dust I traded it off for more parts.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #99  
Good reading, however this post is 15yrs old and PT haven't convinced the tractor buying public that they're the answer. In fact I've never seen or known anyone with one. There are 6 Kubs and JD in our neighborhood though. Don't see the big tractor makers embracing this style of tractor either. So in lieu of PT taking over the world through good design there are some issues that I think tractor makers are slowing moving towards: quick attach implements are on nearly everything now. Easy to mount front snow blowers aren't far behind. What's the next big tractor improvement? realizing that we need more pressure and volume on tractor hydraulics. My tractor, Kub 6060, tops out at about 9 1/2 GPM where a small bobcat starts at 17.5 GPM. The other thing I agree with is that we need a better connection for the 3 pt. Where its at makes sense, what it does makes sense. The PIA of hooking up heavy stuff, makes no sense whatsoever. A std like quick attach built in to all tractors would make implements easier and universal for cat of hitch.
Kubota makes something like a PT, the R series: http://www.kubota.com/product/RSeries.aspx but its aimed more at being a loader than an implement carrier (they have a 11-18GPM aux circuit).

Aaron Z
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #100  
Funny, how many people pinch every penny when buying a tractor. Heck, even going for the "OFF" (unproven) brands. But then suggesting that they SHOULD have some of the most expensive features and specifications.

It's all out there. Just not in your bargain basement homeowner utility tractor.
 

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