Agco tractor keeps burning up fuel shutoff soleniod

[Shortylawson]

I have checked everything I found in wiring diagram that ties into soleniod.The soleniod has 3 wires that plug to it.2hot wires & 1ground , but the funny thing is the 2 hot wires tie together just before they get to the soleniod.10 seconds after the tractor started the soleniod is to hot to touch

 

[JerryK]

If it is a sealed unit, just get you a new one. If you can take it apart, you will probably find some crud or rust keeping the 'armature' from fully seating when it is energized. That's usually what makes them hot. They draw a lot of current when they are trying to pull in and seat the armature, just like any coil or relay.. Good luck.... Jerry

 

[ptgdigger]

The 2 hot wires indicate that it is a 2 coil solenoid , internally a larger coil gives it the power to pull the actuator rod in and then a smaller coil holds it, I have no way to tell you which hot is which but the stronger one should be powered only when the key is in "start" and the other one powered by "run", tying the wires together so they are both constant "run" powered will burn out the solenoid. Does the original wiring diagram indicate them tied together ?

Ray

 

[pat32rf]

I'm with ptg on this. On JD they automatically reduce the voltage after a short time lapse. Common problem with them is that they don't get full voltage due to electronic failure and don't pull in.

 

[farmallbill]

just went through this on a truck engine and found that they had a inline resistor that was burnt out and found that the solenoid had never actually failed all problem was in resistor

 

[Johncolleen123]

Hey I am having the same problem. What was your solution. Did you hook up the new solenoid as a 3 way or buy a two coil solenoid

 

[Dave M7040]

I tried finding info on your tractor such as parts diagram, but the best I could do was to find an AGCO web site that needs an owner to go to their dealer and request login name and password so you can look for parts.

My suggestion is for you to do that if you can.

I really dont know where you live, Dungannon Ireland or Dungannon Ontario Canada so this link below may be of no use to you.

Do you have an owners' manual with a wiring diagram which you could scan and send to me?
I will try and help but I need access to information about your tractor.

Dave M7040

AGCO Parts Books

 

[DJ54]

You can gain access by using the guest user portal.

 

[Dave M7040]

I did what you suggested and got into the site.
I found the fuel shut off solenoid and a diode. Both were illustrations or sketches so of little help except to confirm the solenoid has 3 wires and the diode is present.

Thinking Ago did not invent the fuel shut off solenoid I started to look elsewhere for an operating description.

As I see its operation and its three wires, one wire is a ground wire. Is it obvious which one it is?

The other two are two different sources of 12 volt power. One is a low amp one that is powered anytime the engine is running from the run position on the ignition switch. It may have a smaller diameter wire. Is there one wire smaller than the other(s)?

The small wire, assuming one is smaller, goes to the run position on the ignition switch. Once the solenoid has been retracted using a large amount of amps fed from a relay, when the key is returned to the run position, the low amps wire takes over to hold the solenoid so the engine can run.

The high power wire is triggered by turning the key to the start position. The wire from the start terminal on the key switch does not go directly to the solenoid but rather a relay which in turn will send the large amps to the solenoid to get it pulled in all the way at which point the run position and low amp circuit take over.

My suspicion is that the relay which powers the high amp wire has stuck contacts and is continually sending large amp power to the solenoid long after it should have stopped thus cooking the solenoid from the constant high amps going through it.

Do you know which relay powers the fuel solenoid?

I need to hear from you on this before advising you further.

Dave M7040

 

[CADplans]

I just bought a tractor with a dual coil solenoid.
The tractor was setting on the lot with a dead battry.
They said, no problem, they had a "jump box",, it was a big one.
The box spun the engine,, but, it did not have enough voltage to hold the coil.

When I got the tractor home, it would not start, even though the "charged" battery was turning the engine.
I jumped the tractor off my truck, the tractor started right up.

Now, the tractor has a great battery in it,,, it always starts.

So, check your battery,, a 12.5 volt battery might not be enough.
(NOTE: my battery measures 13.2 volts)

 

[Dave M7040]

I just bought a tractor with a dual coil solenoid.
The tractor was setting on the lot with a dead battry.
They said, no problem, they had a "jump box",, it was a big one.
The box spun the engine,, but, it did not have enough voltage to hold the coil.

When I got the tractor home, it would not start, even though the "charged" battery was turning the engine.
I jumped the tractor off my truck, the tractor started right up.

Now, the tractor has a great battery in it,,, it always starts.

So, check your battery,, a 12.5 volt battery might not be enough.
(NOTE: my battery measures 13.2 volts)

Would it be possible for you to provide a photo of your installed dual coil fuel shut off solenoid so I can see what info I can glean from its installation to help DJ54?

Dave M7040

 

[CADplans]

Would it be possible for you to provide a photo of your installed dual coil fuel shut off solenoid so I can see what info I can glean from its installation to help DJ54?

Dave M7040

Here is the engine,,

The silver thing between the two hoses in the center of this pic is the dual coil fuel shut off solenoid.

 

[Dave M7040]

OK I understand, you are Not talking about a cut off solenoid on a 1980's version of an IH 584.

I could not understand how it would be possible in the 1980's but assumed since that was how I, at 70 years of age, read your post, was how it had been built.

Thanks

Dave M7040

 

[CADplans]

OK I understand, you are Not talking about a cut off solenoid on a 1980's version of an IH 584.
Thanks

Dave M7040

This dual coil solenoid was included so that the tractor manufacturers could shut off the engines with safety switches.

My IH 584 has no way to shut off the engine if the operator leaves the seat.

It is "dual coil" so that the engine will not re-start simply by closing the seat circuit,,
the key switch must be activated to "pull" the plunger,,,
the second coil simply "holds" the plunger.

One coil is "strong", capable of moving the plunger.
the second is "weak",, only capable of holding.

I would imagine that if both were activated constantly,, the solenoid would,, as the OP stated,,, overheat.

 

[pat32rf]

On myJD 4300 the white wire is normally open and gets grounded when you try to start the engine. If it stays grounded too long the smoke escapes.....

 

[Dave M7040]

On myJD 4300 the white wire is normally open and gets grounded when you try to start the engine. If it stays grounded too long the smoke escapes.....

What I noticed when reviewing the 4105 photos on photobucket was the photo of the fuse and relay panel showing a K1 Fuel Run relay and K2 a Fuel pull in relay

I am going to study my Kubota WSM wirng diagram for the fuel cut off solenoid as I expect most manufacturers are doing it in a similar fashion.

Do you have a wiring diagram for your tractor that could either be posted or emailed to me?

Dave M7040

 

[Dave M7040]

pat32rf

I am looking at the diagnostics explanation for the stop solenoid for my Kubota.

The solenoid connector has two terminals and as I have marked with the red arrow so it must use the tractor engine block as its ground.

Although it in reality has three wires to make it operate, one wire is the engine block so on my tractor the ground is not switched.

Is your tractor's fuse panel and relay panel the same or very similar to the JD 4105?

Dave M7040

 

[skyhook]

I have checked everything I found in wiring diagram that ties into soleniod.The soleniod has 3 wires that plug to it.2hot wires & 1ground , but the funny thing is the 2 hot wires tie together just before they get to the soleniod.10 seconds after the tractor started the soleniod is to hot to touch

Did this tractor ever run right, or did you purchase it this way. Here's my 2 cents,, dual coil solenoids come in a couple of varieties, some are internally controlled circuits to prevent both coils from staying on at the same time for too long, and overheat etc. And some are "externally" controlled by a module timer. Since you keep blowing solenoids, my guess would be you have an external control module or a wiring problem. Can you supply the diagram you have "here" so we can take a look at it.

 

[Dave M7040]

I have checked everything I found in wiring diagram that ties into solenoid.The solenoid has 3 wires that plug to it.2hot wires & 1ground , but the funny thing is the 2 hot wires tie together just before they get to the soleniod.10 seconds after the tractor started the solenoid is to hot to touch

In re reading your post several times I was puzzled by your comment that although the solenoid had two power wires and a ground wire, the two power wires were joined together a short distance from the solenoid.

I am lucky to have a Kubota WSM in pdf form because you are able to blow up individual devices and actually see how they work inside. With the normal paper wiring diagram, because you are looking at a printed page, there is nothing you can do to expose the tiny details inside a device.

I have marked up the fuel stop solenoid and associated wiring so I can explain what is happening.

The two power wires are tied together because the switch to shut off the pull in coil is inside the solenoid and controlled by the movement of the solenoid push-pull rod.

The internal contacts are pointed to by the red line. The two tiny dots are the two pull in coil switch contacts and the bar between them with the push-pull rod attached is the switch itself.
The hold and pull in coils are powered any time the ignition switch is in any position except off. It is getting power with the key on, with the key in glow, or with the key in start.

The pull in coil is powered at exactly the same time. However it can shut itself off by moving its push-pull rod in the direction of the red arrow pointing up.

If the push-pull rod cannot move, the pull in coil stays energized.

The ignition switch schematic shows the fact that the stop solenoid is is powered in the key positions and also even as the key switch passes between positions so there is no opportunity for the solenoid to retreat between key positions.

My suggestion is to disconnect the solenoid push rod from the injection pump and see if the push-pull rod moves easily by hand. If the pull in coil switch contacts inside the solenoid have become welded together the push rod wont want to move. If it does not move, power will continue to flow to both coils inside the solenoid creating intense heat quickly.

If the push-pull rod will move manually, see if it will move when you put the key to on. It does not have to go to the start position as it is getting power in the on position.
The push-pull road should move and the solenoid should only get warm.

If you have a multi-meter, set it to ohms and connect it to the two power terminals on the solenoid itself with the wiring harness disconnected from it. With the meter providing a steady reading, which will be the combined resistances of both the pull in and the hold coils, push in the push-pull rod and the ohms reading should go to 0 as the internal contacts have opened and there is no longer a circuit. If there is no change in the ohms reading there is an internal problem.

Another poster has suggested a weak battery may be to blame and while I agree that is possible, lets see what these simple test reveal. Now that we know that the solenoid should have been pulled in the instant you turn the key to on and long before you get to start I am hesitant to accept the weak battery possibility.

If you don't understand what I am saving, post again or go to my profile and send me an email not a private message. We can even arrange to talk on the phone.

Dave M7040

 

[banjodunn]

G'day pull the plunger out of the solenoid and see if there is a small plunger in the bottom of the solenoid if there is then it is a switch to change over from the pull in to the hold in coils in the solenoid the solenoid needs to be adjusted correctly to be able to activate this switch when operating. The pull in coil is a much higher rated coil with a short duty cycle and therefor will pull harder (using more amperage) the hold in coil is a lower rated coil with less pull but a much longer duty cycle ( less amperage). We used to see this on some machines we used to look after years ago.

Jon