$500,000.00 fine and/or 5 years in federal prison for a first offense. John Deere

[MORRISONSTEEL]

vsteel bob is correct the diagnostic equipment is very much available (yes even the much maligned JD tractors)....but....just like for the dealers it's not free and it is very far from cheap. The programming issue certainly isn't new this is a 20 year old topic you would not believe how many 20 year old tractors of all kinds of colors that require dealer programming for certain things. Still kind of glad myself that Joe's muffler shop can't re-calibrate the automatic braking system on my daughters car.

 

[adventure bob]

paul, I don't think I missed anything. first you said only "fools" accept all this electronic stuff, then went on to tell how your wife has a car with this electronic stuff on it.
I stated that the performance were getting today is only from the application of electronics then you stated a luddite opinion about electronics and that
"There goes the stupidity again! I was getting 30 MPG with carbs and making great power long before the factory was able to do it with computers!"
Given that I asked for you to name a car without electronics that is getting anywhere near the performance were getting today, specifically a car that makes 100hp/liter and gets 30MPG. I think you think you were getting "great power" and that type of fuel economy. So, name the car that is any where near the performance, shouldn't be hard since you stated you were doing it. Ill lower the bar for ya; name a car that gets what the avg output is today: 92hp/liter and over 25MPG.

 

[paulfun9]

paul, I don't think I missed anything. first you said only "fools" accept all this electronic stuff, then went on to tell how your wife has a car with this electronic stuff on it.
I stated that the performance were getting today is only from the application of electronics then you stated a luddite opinion about electronics and that
"There goes the stupidity again! I was getting 30 MPG with carbs and making great power long before the factory was able to do it with computers!"
Given that I asked for you to name a car without electronics that is getting anywhere near the performance were getting today, specifically a car that makes 100hp/liter and gets 30MPG. I think you think you were getting "great power" and that type of fuel economy. So, name the car that is any where near the performance, shouldn't be hard since you stated you were doing it. Ill lower the bar for ya; name a car that gets what the avg output is today: 92hp/liter and over 25MPG.

Please show me where I said that cars produced from the factory were getting 30MPG and still making good power?

Now to get to an even better point Please show me a car that gets the 27 MPG and can do so while producing the stated HP. As we all know when you step on the gass those projected average MPG that they claim to get starts to drop real fast.
Just look at it this way one of my trucks makes something like 375HP as rated from the factory Sure when I run with no load and cut out 4 cyl and run on only 4 at about 6 MPH less than the speed limit it will attain very close to the stated MPG but fact be known it isn't making 375 HP when running on only 4. Likewise when I am just driving normal the darn thing cant even get close to the stated MPG so again tell me about those numbers? As I said before I was able to get 30MPG out of carbs a long time ago.

 

[OkieDave]

And why does HP/liter matter anyway? Does a car with a 5l engine delivering 30MPG pollute more than a car with a 1.8l engine also making 30MPG?

Yes, I know, smaller engines weigh less, and lighter cars generally have better fuel economy, but the HP/liter is a means to the end of better fuel economy. If you can get the same economy with a different engine design--even a bigger, heavier one--why does specific horsepower matter?

 

[adventure bob]

Paul, The argument I made was that there is no way you can get the performance were getting today without the electronics that you so vehemently bemoan. You stated otherwise, even stated the "stupidity" with the argument. I simply want you to tell me a car before electronics that got the kind of efficiency that were getting today that doesn't use electronics. Instead of arguing around the edge cases, just name a car that uses a carb and gets anywhere near the HP/L and fuel efficiency. you specifically said "There goes the stupidity again! I was getting 30 MPG with carbs and making great power long before the factory was able to do it with computers" identify what car and what "great" power was.

Okie hp/liter is measure of work efficiency. given the fixed variables of internal combustion the higher the HP/L the more efficient the engine is in its ability to do work. without modern electronics, theres no way, contrary to the argument presented, that an engine can achieve those kind of efficiencies. Higher HP/L/MPG the more work the engine is squeezing out of a volume of fuel. If I get 30hp/l and 15 MPG it is less fuel efficient than if I get 50Hp/L for the same fuel mileage.

I wont even go exotic for an example: The lowly Subaru BRZ is a 100hp/l car that get 34MPG (actual not EPA, I just looked at the MPG erg on my buddies sitting in the parking lot.) Your turn, name a car with a carb that is anywhere close.

PS; According to the online "The truth about cars" the avg specific output of the 2015 model year cars is 93.3hp/L.

 

[paulfun9]

Paul, The argument I made was that there is no way you can get the performance were getting today without the electronics that you so vehemently bemoan. You stated otherwise, even stated the "stupidity" with the argument. I simply want you to tell me a car before electronics that got the kind of efficiency that were getting today that doesn't use electronics. Instead of arguing around the edge cases, just name a car that uses a carb and gets anywhere near the HP/L and fuel efficiency. you specifically said "There goes the stupidity again! I was getting 30 MPG with carbs and making great power long before the factory was able to do it with computers" identify what car and what "great" power was.

Okie hp/liter is measure of work efficiency. given the fixed variables of internal combustion the higher the HP/L the more efficient the engine is in its ability to do work. without modern electronics, theres no way, contrary to the argument presented, that an engine can achieve those kind of efficiencies. Higher HP/L/MPG the more work the engine is squeezing out of a volume of fuel. If I get 30hp/l and 15 MPG it is less fuel efficient than if I get 50Hp/L for the same fuel mileage.

I wont even go exotic for an example: The lowly Subaru BRZ is a 100hp/l car that get 34MPG (actual not EPA, I just looked at the MPG erg on my buddies sitting in the parking lot.) Your turn, name a car with a carb that is anywhere close.

PS; According to the online "The truth about cars" the avg specific output of the 2015 model year cars is 93.3hp/L.

My brother in law cant get more than 26MPG out of his Subaru on his best day? So I really wonder if your statement is true!

 

[adventure bob]

NAME A CAR! Stop with your anecdotal BS and name a car. Stop making excuses and name a car that has anywhere the efficiency of a modern electronically controlled one. SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT WITH FACTUAL EVIDENCE. If you cant you should prbly stop making ridiculous statements.

 

[paulfun9]

NAME A CAR! Stop with your anecdotal BS and name a car. Stop making excuses and name a car that has anywhere the efficiency of a modern electronically controlled one. SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT WITH FACTUAL EVIDENCE. If you cant you should prbly stop making ridiculous statements.

I can name a few that I worked on that meet my statement! Problem is you wont believe me when I tell you so why bother! The only way you and I will ever come to terms on this is a face to face and me taking you for a ride so you can personally measure the MPG and then me seeing you put a car of your claims on a dyno and show me that it is indeed able to get said MPG while putting out the max stated HP. Of which I know you cant name one!

 

[man00]

Nothing gonna change it is what it is..I don't know the warranty of JD but at least they should extend the warranty of the (ECU) ? or what ever it's called. They should also provide free upgrades (firmware) to the device down the road, if safety and environmental issues are the main concerns of JD. But I fully expect JD and all the others to milk every penny they can get from the customer. Just the way things are these days..

 

[crazyal]

Each side has good points. Deere has to think about a lot more than just selling tractors. That software might be in the hands of a farmer that just wants to replace a defective module with the correct part but if you read what OkieDave posted on page 1 the hacked software can do a lot more than that. The EPA sets emission levels that Deere must meet and you nor I can defeat legally. Yet that hacked software looks like it can do it. What if our wonderful government decided that Deere didn't take enough steps to prevent this from happening. **** we have states suing Exxon for research they did on global warming in the 70s. What happens if 30 years from now the government came knocking on Deere's door saying 30 years ago you didn't do enough to prevent people from defeating their smog systems and now global warming is your fault?

At the end of the day Deere is going to ask their lawyers "how do we protect ourselves"? The answer from a lawyer (and an insurer) will always be the most restrictive option. If they don't follow it and something happens lawyers (who do nothing more than try to find the one letter saying we should do something that didn't get done) will have a field day. I'm not saying that it's right that you need to have Deere come out and update your software because you replaced a part but until there's a better answer brands are going to take this approach.

So here's a question, what if you go out and buy a two year old used $200k Deere. You're out plowing your field when the engine goes boom. Knowing this is not a simple problem you call Deere and the guy comes out. When he connects up his laptop to the computer and says "Sorry but you have hacked software, we wont fix this under warranty. Before we will fix it we also need to go through the entire machine to make sure everything is correct (at your cost)."? What would you do? Just pay the full cost of the repair? Try and find the previous owner and sue them? Try to sue Deere? I'm betting there are a number of people who would try to sue Deere. Even if unsuccessful it would still cost a lot of money. Or what if you were the original owner, hacked the software, had a problem because of the hack and you needed the dealer's help fixing and reflashed the old software back on the tractor? Is it fair to Deere to fix your tractor under warranty because you decided that all the smog stuff wasn't needed?