Home electric problem / question help

[teejk]

Let me stress my original point for GFCI circuits: Each GFCI's circuits neutral (white wire) needs to be isolated from other circuit's white wire (neutrals) and from the ground (green wire). Otherwise, the neutral current has a parallel path on other circuit's neutral wires back to the neutral bus in the panel. This looks like a current imbalance to all the GFCI breakers whose neutrals are somehow bonded and they all will trip.

But OP says he is running GFCI breakers in his main panel. If properly installed they of course will share the same neutral bus and ground bus (only a matter of inches). And in the main panel I believe the neutral and ground busses are bonded? Elsewhere in this thread somebody mentioned the grounding system and OP mentioned something about re-bar in the foundation. While I believe that is required for commercial buildings that would be a secondary ground (not unlike a satellite dish or telephone). Primary ground would still be the driven ground rods within a short distance from the service entrance (my code book is in the garage but the distance is noted in there).

 

[aczlan]

But OP says he is running GFCI breakers in his main panel. If properly installed they of course will share the same neutral bus and ground bus (only a matter of inches). And in the main panel I believe the neutral and ground busses are bonded? Elsewhere in this thread somebody mentioned the grounding system and OP mentioned something about re-bar in the foundation. While I believe that is required for commercial buildings that would be a secondary ground (not unlike a satellite dish or telephone). Primary ground would still be the driven ground rods within a short distance from the service entrance (my code book is in the garage but the distance is noted in there).

With a GFCI breaker, the neutral from the circuit goes back to the breaker and there is another wire that goes from the breaker to the neutral bus.
If someone tied the neutral to the neutral from another circuit downstream it would trip the GFCI breaker.

Aaron Z

 

[Gator6x4]

You think that is ridiculous. Our PA state building code, which most counties and local municipalities follow, require Arc-Fault circuit breakers for almost every room but the kitchen and bathroom. They are so sensitive older style vacuum cleaners or anything with worn motor brushes with trip them. And those Arc-Fault breakers are very expensive, $30+ each.

When we built our new house 5 years ago, I asked the electrician what to do about them if they give me trouble. He said do what other people have done, replace them with standard breakers after the building code enforcement inspection has been done. :confused3:

How did we live so long without government intervention?

We were doing fine until the millennials started begatting and scissors, diaper pins, knives, forks, paper clips and other metal objects started being pushed into receptacles. Being good parent they didn't want to traumatize the kid by disciplining him, so they sued home builders, electrical contractors, the utility company etc to placate their sense of being wronged.

The government stepped in and closed the door by mandating GFI. This really pi**ed off big time those wanting to sue.

 

[LD1]

I agree it sounds like some neutrals are crossed somewhere.

Without gfi breakers, it didn't matter where on the neutral bar they went. Only thing that mattered was hot wires so you could label breakers accordingly.

With a GFI breaker, neutrals now matter where they go. Everything on the circuit, getting powered off that breakers hot wire, MUST return to the neutral of THAT breaker. No more, no less. What goes out must come back +/- 5mA or it will trip.

Given multiple breakers are tripping under different scenarios, neutrals are crossed somewhere is my bet. IE, if we'll is getting power from breaker 2, but it's neutral is tied to breaker 3, BOTH will trip. Because one is seeing current coming back but not going out, the other is sending current out but not getting it back.

So it sounds like this plumber/electrician wasn't familiar with GFI breakers, and had old school mindset that it didn't matter where the whites went.

 

[teejk]

With a GFCI breaker, the neutral from the circuit goes back to the breaker and there is another wire that goes from the breaker to the neutral bus.
If someone tied the neutral to the neutral from another circuit downstream it would trip the GFCI breaker.

Aaron Z

Got it...been awhile since I installed a GFCI breaker (I mostly saw the outlets). Your scenario would not be normal since most wiring is done with Romex 2-3 wire plus ground and no sense cheating on the neutral if you are already home-running the hot wires back to the box...but I guess "cowboy" electricians are capable of a lot. I'd investigate the grounding issues first since it sounds like everything worked for awhile.

 

[teejk]

We were doing fine until the millennials started begatting and scissors, diaper pins, knives, forks, paper clips and other metal objects started being pushed into receptacles. Being good parent they didn't want to traumatize the kid by disciplining him, so they sued home builders, electrical contractors, the utility company etc to placate their sense of being wronged.

The government stepped in and closed the door by mandating GFI. This really pi**ed off big time those wanting to sue.

Don't confuse GFCI with "arc-fault" or "tamper-proof". GFCI has been around for a long time. The other two are much more recent (arc fault around 2009? and tamper proof around 2014?).

 

[Oldoak]

tamper proof around 2014?

Several years earlier than 2014.

Our government feels the need to protect millennials from themselves. Don't have to look too far to wonder why.

 

[teg]

Oh, I so need a photo of the electrical box... :dance1: 3 more days!!!

 

[PILOON]

We had a GFI on an outside outlet that the tractor was plugged in to.
When it snowed the GFI would pop.
No GFI now!

 

[robstaples]

I got a new FLIR device (infrared plug in to smart phone) and check my electrical panels... cause friends asked " what are you going to do with it?".. attempting to justify it. Anyway, I found all my gfci breakers were warm and most had no load. I have a dozen or so. I believed you get what you paid for and if you really needed the device to save a life, you'd want a $30 device over a $5 device. Not starting an off target debate, just saying , windedly, gfci generate heat normally. Anyone ever take one apart?