Subsoiling with a 25hp CUT Advice

[cphilip]

I was digging around some old equipment left over here from our old Ford 5030. Trying to decide what I can use and what to sell or trade off for what I need. And I dug what I thought was a 9 tine Cultivator out of the honeysuckle and discovered it was a Fred Cane Cultivator Ripper instead. I was going to just get a smaller single shank Sub Soiler to do my little bit of deep relief in the garden to compliment the Tiller attachment but this thing got me to thinking...

Of course a 9 shank is way to big for this 25 horse tractor. So digging around (pun intended) I got to trying to figure out how many of the tines could this thing handle? I am getting mixed results. One side says 1 tine for every 5 HP. So that would mean I could drop 4 and run 5. But some say 1 per 10 HP. That would leave me not able to even run 3 tines. If so I guess its best to sell it and just by a single sub soiler?

I got all the bolts lose on it so I could, with some additional effort, try some different things. The cool thing about these Fred Cains is the design allows you to do all sorts of combinations by simply changing or dropping off pieces.

Has anyone run a Fred Cain on a 25 HP bigger frame Compact like this 2610 Kioti with filled tires? And if so what number of tines were you able to handle?

I mean its not like I got anything to waste here. Its already here and its either figure out if its useful for me or trade or sell it.

 

[sweettractors]

If you just want to cultivate up to 8 or so inches deep, 5 shanks would be about right. If you are thinking of sinking it to the beams, probably 1 shank would be enough(depending on type of soil). Ken Sweet

 

[oldnslo]

What type of soil and how deep are you wanting to go. My 24 HP runs out of traction way before it runs out of power pulling a single shank subsoiler 12 - 14 inches deep. with the 18" potato plow I usually have to have the FEL on and sometimes a load of dirt in the bucket so I can dig potatoes at full depth. I also shorten the right side link and use the potato plow like a mold board and turn my gardens. Again run out of traction way before I run out of power.

R1 tires are filled with Rim Guard

Rule of thumb for chisel plows in this area was 10- 15 HP per shank for 8 - 10" working depth. Soil is this area is a heavy clay loam mix that holds water well and gets hard if worked wet.

 

[cphilip]

It is heavy clay soil here. Id probably want to loosen that soil that packs up under the tiller which would be probably 8" I would guess. All of what I work or would want to work that is well worked soil Garden and food plots. But I seriously doubt this Fred Cain unit, although a nice find, is not at all suited to the way I am heading which is downsizing everything. It is however probably good trade fodder for where I am heading.

I think probably a one beam is where I should head. Y'all are sort of confirming that goal is still the most practical.

Im tempted to experiment with it though. Since I got all the nuts loose and can. But I have nothing but undisturbed ground available to try it on. Since the garden and food plots are currently occupied.

 

[sweettractors]

It is heavy clay soil here. Id probably want to loosen that soil that packs up under the tiller which would be probably 8" I would guess. All of what I work or would want to work that is well worked soil Garden and food plots. But I seriously doubt this Fred Cain unit, although a nice find, is not at all suited to the way I am heading which is downsizing everything. It is however probably good trade fodder for where I am heading.

I think probably a one beam is where I should head. Y'all are sort of confirming that goal is still the most practical.

Im tempted to experiment with it though. Since I got all the nuts loose and can. But I have nothing but undisturbed ground available to try it on. Since the garden and food plots are currently occupied.

Keep in mind while experimenting, that the width of point will have a big impact on how hard a shank pulls. For maximum depth, a point that is no wider than the shank would be best and for shallow cultivating a wider point would be better to disrupt weeds/grass. Ken Sweet

 

[cphilip]

Im not sure what the stock blades are but they do not appear that much wider than the shank.

How about this idea... I set it up with only three shanks?

One leading (forward) shank behind each rear wheel at about 5 foot wide. And then one center trailing shank in the middle.

If that does not pull very well then I abandon the whole idea of using it and resort to just selling it and buying a single shank Sub Soiler. There would be no point in keeping it if it did not work with at least 3 shanks. The advantages of a single certainly take over at that point.

Here are some pictures of what I am dealing with.

 

[sweettractors]

Im not sure what the stock blades are but they do not appear that much wider than the shank.

How about this idea... I set it up with only three shanks?

One leading (forward) shank behind each rear wheel at about 5 foot wide. And then one center trailing shank in the middle.

If that does not pull very well then I abandon the whole idea of using it and resort to just selling it and buying a single shank Sub Soiler. There would be no point in keeping it if it did not work with at least 3 shanks. The advantages of a single certainly take over at that point.

Here are some pictures of what I am dealing with.

If you decide to sell it, Here is something to give you the value of a new one. Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment - New & Used Farming Tools & Equipment | Tractor Equipment, Implements

 

[cphilip]

Whats your opinion on my 3 shank idea?

thanks for that Sweet. Im certain the used value would be at least if not more than half a new one? Im thinking its not more than say $400 - $500?

 

[jeff9366]

Im not sure what the stock blades are but they do not appear that much wider than the shank.

How about this idea... I set it up with three shanks?

One leading (forward) shank behind each rear wheel at about 5 foot wide. And then one center trailing shank in the middle.

In heavy clay I think three shanks is all you will be able to pull 8" to 12" deep.

I own a Field Cultivator and a Subsoiler. Pulling three (3) Field Cultivator tines requires about same power and traction as a single Subsoiler shank. Field Cultivators pull easier than Subsoilers due to horizontal orientation of points, which slip through soil easier than a blunt Subsoiler shank at 45 degrees. If you have considerable rocks, a blunt Subsoiler is ultimately the tougher of the two implements. I use my Dirt Dog Field Cultivator more often and far more hours, than my Subsoiler.

I consider a Field Cultivator an ag implement. I consider a Subsoiler a construction implement with ag applications.

I use Dirt Dog's (brand) iteration of a Field Cultivatortor regularly. The Fred Cain Field Cultivators are built a tad heavier than the Dirt Dog. My neighbor has a Fred Cain nine shank which he pulls behind a 45-horsepower, 4-WD John Deere. Sandy loam here in Florida.

My neighbor paid $475 for his Fred Cain Field Cultivator, used, in about the condition of yours, after we watched it on Craig's List for two months. I like this tough, versatile implement but they are a mystery to most.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/374012-field-cultivator-7-wide-craigs.html?highlight=

My Dirt Dog sinks into everything except packed pasture if the soil is MOIST. It works fine for food plots, which require three passes for initial seed preparation.

LINK: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/339095-dirt-dog-all-purpose-plow.html?highlight=

 

[cphilip]

Ok.... thats a good real life experience for me to apply. And considering that this Fred Cain is free.. more or less. I feel somewhat obligated to at least give it a try with three and see how it goes. It might be better application for my needs than a single subsoiler. Ill give it a go. Only problem I have is that I cannot try it out on already tilled soils that I intend its use for. But maybe a patch of pasture will give me some idea of its effectiveness if I don't expect too much and keep it shallow at first.

I do however see other applications for a sub soiler in the future for just as you suggest. Construction. Pulling a wire or pipe line or something like that could be handy.

 

[sweettractors]

Whats your opinion on my 3 shank idea?

thanks for that Sweet. Im certain the used value would be at least if not more than half a new one? Im thinking its not more than say $400 - $500?

3 to start with is a great idea and figure on multiple passes in compacted soil. The price 400-500 price range sounds fair if the springs, anchor pins and points are all good. Ken Sweet

 

[cphilip]

Cant' hurt to try right? No real investment except time and effort. And I got that. LOL...

My plan is to mount two of the leading shanks right behind the rear wheels. And the third one, a trailing one, dead center. Primarily a trailing shank so the whole thing will stand up on its own. Or do you guys thinks some other configuration would be better for the pull of the whole frame and the tractor?

Thanks all. Ill report back when can get this test completed. Maybe today even!

 

[sweettractors]

Cant' hurt to try right? No real investment except time and effort. And I got that. LOL...

My plan is to mount two of the leading shanks right behind the rear wheels. And the third one, a trailing one, dead center. Primarily a trailing shank so the whole thing will stand up on its own. Or do you guys thinks some other configuration would be better for the pull of the whole frame and the tractor?

Thanks all. Ill report back when can get this test completed. Maybe today even!

Sounds good !! Be sure to post pictures. Ken Sweet

 

[cphilip]

Will do

Ken, do you concur with Jeff on his assessments of the usefulness of a Field cultivator vs a Sub Soiler? It almost sounds like I could use both rather than one or the other.

On another note I also have this thing to deal with. Its a Ford branded model 222 Disc Harrow. Also too big for where I am now. Also extracted from the honey suckle mass and all the shafts rotate. Its not frozen up. This may be trade fodder for partial on either a grapple or a good box scrape.

 

[sweettractors]

Will do

Ken, do you concur with Jeff on his assessments of the usefulness of a Field cultivator vs a Sub Soiler? It almost sounds like I could use both rather than one or the other.

On another note I also have this thing to deal with. Its a Ford branded model 222 Disc Harrow. Also too big for where I am now. Also extracted from the honey suckle mass and all the shafts rotate. Its not frozen up. This may be trade fodder for partial on either a grapple or a good box scrape.

A subsoiler is handy, if you need to go 15-18" deep to reduce compaction or also great for laying electrical line underground. A disc harrow is a must for gardens, foodplots or seedbed preparations, especially in clay based soils. Ken Sweet

 

[jeff9366]

My plan is to mount two of the leading shanks right behind the rear wheels. And the third one, a trailing one, dead center. Primarily a trailing shank so the whole thing will stand up on its own.

Good plan.

With its relatively thick shank and foot, a Subsoiler leaves a more disrupted soil pattern on the soil surface after it passes, compared to relatively thin tines, horizontally oriented, of a Field Cultivator.



My preference would be a PTO powered roto-tiller, over a disc harrow, behind a 25-horsepower tractor. Disc Harrows are not really effective until the pans reach 20" diameter, which will generate more draft force resistance than your tractor can overcome. You must pull a Disc Harrow at a good pace in order for it to smooth well.

PTO powered roto-tillers, with forward rotating tines, push the tractor and implement forward, requiring little horsepower to operate and not challenging tractor traction.

 

[Spindifferent]

Here's what I use with my JD 3520:

Tufline Model 1S-24

Weight and traction are your best friends with a subsoiler.

Subsoilers | Tufline

 

[cphilip]

Good plan.



My preference would be a PTO powered roto-tiller, over a disc harrow, behind a 25-horsepower tractor. Disc Harrows are not really effective until the pans reach 20" diameter, which will generate more draft force resistance than your tractor can overcome. You must pull a Disc Harrow at a good pace in order for it to smooth well.

PTO powered roto-tillers, with forward rotating tines, push the tractor and implement forward, requiring little horsepower to operate and not challenging tractor traction.

That is what I use for gardening. I had a 6 foot wide Italian made Tiller that I used with the big Ford. I traded that one in to a 5 foot Indian manufactured one to do this downsizing. But I can attest the fact that after a number of years, the soil below what the tiller can reach gets compacted hard here in upstate SC. And so something deeper periodically to disrupt that and penetrate it is called for. So I had to have something and this is going to work...

I have no real use for a disc harrow. Let alone one this size.

Trial was a success! I reduced it to 3 tines. I can't hardly tell its back there even in very hard ground. Doesn't miss a beat or even grunt. You'll see the springs really working in these pictures. So you know is grabbing some hard stuff. Pasture thats not been disturbed in over 30 years. But their isn't much effect on the tractor at all. Im running at about 2000- 2100 rpm here in 1st gear.

I ended up with one center forward tine and two trailing tines at about 5 feet apart because thats simply how they worked out by removing the other 6.

I have a video but not sure I can find a way to load it up.

For now here are some still photos.

 

[cphilip]

Here's what I use with my JD 3520:

Tufline Model 1S-24

Weight and traction are your best friends with a subsoiler.

Subsoilers | Tufline

That is a beast! A lot bigger than the one I am looking at. The one I was looking at I think was a farm King designed for CUT's... Think it was at Northern Tool and saw one like it a TSC. Nothing as big as that one. More like a single tine of this Cain is all these are.

 

[sweettractors]

That is a beast! A lot bigger than the one I am looking at. The one I was looking at I think was a farm King designed for CUT's... Think it was at Northern Tool and saw one like it a TSC. Nothing as big as that one. More like a single tine of this Cain is all these are.

I don't know if Fred Cain is still making the small subsoiler? We switched to the Dirt Dog brand shown in the link below. Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment - New & Used Farming Tools & Equipment | Tractor Equipment, Implements