Is Rock and Roll dead. Part 2.

[N80]

I checked out Greta Van Fleet. There is some talent there but it is almost like a Zeppelin cover group. The lead singer has a good but not necessarily great voice and if you watch him he even poses and moves his hands like Robert Plant. I'm not really into them as they are right now. But they are very young and they are talented. My advice to them would be to stop listening to Led Zeppelin right now and don't listen to anything but the blues for about a year. Then put together an album. That could be amazing.

 

[/pine]

I never meant in any way that I was trying to compare the two bands...

...AND an ensemble of virtuosos....

Difficult to realize this because they individually only exhibited profound but limited talents...most virtuosos play multiple instruments at exceptional levels...along with composition abilities for multiple levels of orchestrated works...

Again I'm not comparing the two bands in any way...but
Anderson was all of that plus an extremely talented performer...he could perform at the same level with about any well rehearsed accompaniment...

I saw LZ on 5/5/73 in Tampa (at the time an attendance record for a single act)...The one thing that struck me the most about finally getting to see them after listening to their recordings...was how long and intensely they jammed on everything they played...and it was like they were playing as much for themselves as they were for the crowd...but maybe it just seemed that way because there was a lot of energy in that crowd...!

I did not go but a few years later there was an encore concert at the same venue (Old Tampa Stadium) that turned into a disaster...There was a horrendous electrical storm that encompassed the area just as they were starting their sound checks...there was some crowd pushes and IIRC there were a couple of deaths...

 

[MossRoad]

Yeah, my cousin was at a Who concert in Cincinnati when 11 people were killed in a crush of people.
The Who concert disaster - Wikipedia

That same year, I took a girl to a midnight screening of Night of the Living Dead. It was about 6 degrees outside. The movie theater didn't open the doors. About 12:20 the crowd started pushing. They were pushing so hard we could pick our feet up off the ground and not fall down. We were about 3 rows back from the doors. Well, as most of you know, doors on commercial buildings only open out. The crowd was pushing so hard, the theater couldn't open the doors. When they finally got one of the double doors open, about a dozen people fell into the opening and onto the floor. I got shoved in and down and looked back up and my date was still outside, pressed up against the closed glass door, along with a couple other people. At the same instant I saw her, the glass on the door shattered and she got bent over the crash bar. For some reason, the crowd instantly backed up and there was 3 feet of space all around her and the other two people stuck on the bar. They all calmly pushed themselves off the bar, stepped back, and stepped under the crash bar into the lobby. I thought we, and especially she, were gonna die.

From that point on in my life, I've hated crowds and do just about anything I can to avoid them. But sometimes you have to buck up, and go. But I'm always looking for ways out and keep a tight grip on my wife or kids' hands.

Last crowd I was in was July 4, 2015 at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to see The Stones and fireworks. It was great! And the Speedway knows how to handle crowds pretty well. I never felt cramped or pushed.

 

[N80]

Difficult to realize this because they individually only exhibited profound but limited talents...most virtuosos play multiple instruments at exceptional levels...along with composition abilities for multiple levels of orchestrated works...

I don't think there is anything about virtuosity that implies breadth of talent. As far as I know Pavoratti never played an instrument or wrote a song. Having said that, Page and Plant wrote most of Zeppelin's songs...well, the ones they didn't rip off from the old blues guys. Plant can wail on the harmonica and remains an active and successful writer. John Paul Jones played base and keyboard. Bonham was Bonham. There was never anything like him and probably never will be.

I never saw Zep in concert. I had always heard they were warm-and-cold in terms of live performances. None of their filmed or live recorded concerts are particularly good. I was set to see them in Greensboro, NC a few months after Bonham died. I was disappointed but they were not at the top of their game at that point and I don't think their show at that time was very good. I think this happens to a lot of bands. A friend of mine who worships Dylan saw him in concert in the early 90s. He said it was the worse show he'd ever seen. Dylan stood at the mic, head down, never any eye contact and no one could understand the words he was saying. Other bands are known to consistently do great live shows. Springsteen comes to mind.

I have seen Plant in concert twice supporting his solo work, some of which is very good and some of which is great. I have never seen any individual performer as engaged with the crowd as Plant. He also seemed to be having a great time himself. Either he was genuinely having fun (in Columbia, SC) or he is that good of an actor. Either way, quite the performance. Both concerts were also very well done. He tends to surround himself with excellent musicians.

 

[RobertN]

I would qualify those as Rock Centric lists...

Page and Bonham are highly rated, but there are other guitarist and drummers that were, or are, much better.

Bonham was right up there with Moon, and Peart maybe, but in that group Peart would be the one to compare to. Bonham was a big fan of Krupa and Rich; you can hear their stuff in his playing. But, it could be argued that Krupa, Rich, Roach etc were better, more technical drummers. Of the drummers around now, Steve Smith and Neal Peart are arguably better; both are very good jazz drummers too.

Page was a good guitarist, who got some interesting sounds out of his Les Pauls. But was he really that good? Compared to Chet Atkins, Charro, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, or even Les Paul himself? Even Hendrix; was he that great compared to the other guitarists out there past and present? There' a lot of flat pickers, bluegrass, flamenco, jazz guitarist that arguably are/were better.

That's the problem I have with a lot of "Greatest Lists"; most are Rock Centric whether guitarists or drummers.

FWIW, Raising Sand was an exceptional album; having plant with Alison Krauss(one of the best fiddlers) was an interesting combo.

Ian Anderson did some great stuff with Lucia Micarelli...

This is kind of like arguing who is better, Superman or Batman....which is fun. But yes, Zep was an ensemble talent..... AND an ensemble of virtuosos. There aren't many short lists of great guitarists without Page on them. Robert Plant is undeniably one of the greatest rock vocalists ever with incredible range (and sensitivity as demonstrated with his work with Allison Krause on Raising Sand (Grammy, Best Album of the Year, etc). His solo career has been stellar. The late John Bonham was right up there with Keith Moon and Neil Peart. Chad Smith (drummer for Chilli Peppers says Bonham was the best ever. John Paul Jones was nothing special on base but has gone on to be quite a producer.

None if this is to take anything away from Tull. Loved them and still do.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Some like Picasso
Some like Rockwell
Some like neither
But many like both

I've grown up thru the rock generation. We were blessed to have it spoon-fed to us chronologically, with time to listen and digest it.

I got into alternative college scene music in the early'80's. I have tunes I love so much, I don't even care about the lyrics and some that I really love the lyrics. I can do Cranberries (sad about O'Riordan) or some old Black Sabbath. Got into some grunge a bit in the 90's...But I really was saddened the day Greg Lake died. There are some awesome interviews he did prior to his death.

Big fan of Mark Knopfler too.

 

[N80]

I would qualify those as Rock Centric lists...

Page and Bonham are highly rated, but there are other guitarist and drummers that were, or are, much better.

Bonham was right up there with Moon, and Peart maybe, but in that group Peart would be the one to compare to. Bonham was a big fan of Krupa and Rich; you can hear their stuff in his playing. But, it could be argued that Krupa, Rich, Roach etc were better, more technical drummers. Of the drummers around now, Steve Smith and Neal Peart are arguably better; both are very good jazz drummers too.

Page was a good guitarist, who got some interesting sounds out of his Les Pauls. But was he really that good? Compared to Chet Atkins, Charro, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, or even Les Paul himself? Even Hendrix; was he that great compared to the other guitarists out there past and present? There' a lot of flat pickers, bluegrass, flamenco, jazz guitarist that arguably are/were better.

That's the problem I have with a lot of "Greatest Lists"; most are Rock Centric whether guitarists or drummers.

I agree with most of your points and in the context of this discussion I was just talking rock musicians.

But even in that context (rock) there are other issues. It seems popular to snub a lot of the older greats, like Page, and then drop names of these highly technical and highly proficient guitar plays with incredible technical ability but who have never really accomplished anything in terms of original music or fame with a band. Same with drummers. That does not take anything away from them but when considering who the 'greats' are I think you have to take into account their careers as a whole. In the context of technical ability, original music, fame achieved and other musicians influenced I think Page deserves to be on the 'greats' list although I might not even put him in the top ten.

I was at the Juke Joint Festival (blues) in Clarksdale, Mississippi in 2017. I spent a couple of hours listening to 17 year old Christone "Kingfish" Ingram play the guitar with a tiny backing band (drums, base). The kid is a phenom. Look him up. He's been on TV. Been to the White House. There is a lot of Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn (and the blues men that influenced them). He is mesmerizing to watch and to listen to. And he makes it look effortless. I'd love to see him again. But, he is not in a band, does not write his own music and as far as I know never had an album. He is technically brilliant but will never be a 'great' until he has done great stuff.

As for drummers I see Peart as the undisputed master. Moon and Bonham brought a very different aspect to drumming and they fit their respective bands perfectly and uniquely but certainly not with the amount of technical ability that Peart has. Peart has also managed to stay alive.

 

[tractorshopper]

For newer bands, I love Alter Bridge with Miles Kennedy singing. Slash with Miles was great too. Also like Dakona, but they aren't together anymore and Vergos Merlot to name a few newer ones that haven't been mentioned yet.

thanks for the thread George. Giving me a few to check out that I haven't heard of.

 

[CobyRupert]

I would qualify those as Rock Centric lists...

That's the problem I have with a lot of "Greatest Lists"; most are Rock Centric whether guitarists or drummers.

Not only that, but like a lot of things, they're all baby-boomer centered too (for the time being). :cuckooclock:

 

[MossRoad]

Joe Bonamassa anyone? Anyone?

(for you electric fans, jump to 39:50ish, but you'll miss some great acoustic work)