Storm tracker thread

[Industrial Toys]

Back in the 80s, a very experienced outdoorsman, cannoist and triathalon guy and friend was demonstrating how stable the canoe we were in was. A second later, we and all our stuff were in the water. I was not impressed to say the least.

 

[dmccarty]

I read the Cape Fear River in one place was normally 25' and was expected to crest at 62'..... 5+ feet over the previous record. That's a 32' rise in elevation. I see houses all along rivers here built on stilts 15-20' above the river. 32' is ridiculous. Almost unfathomable.

It is unreal.

One local river usually has 1,000 CFS of water. It peaked Monday at 100,000+ CFS. It was running 10,000-15,000 CFS as Flo went south of us. Then what was left of Flo came over us and it peaked to a bit over 100,000 CFS. :shocked::shocked::shocked:

Original rain forecasts for us was 5-8 inches of rain. Last guestimate I read was we got 10-15 inches. I think it was closer to 15 inches. Until Sunday night, we just had steady rain, some heavy, but mostly not bad. Sunday it started raining a bit heavy. Sunday night was heavier. Monday morning I could not tell if the rain was rain or strong winds again. Going to work, a low spot in our road was being flooded by water. NEVER happened before. Twas only 2-3 inches of water and not flowing fast so I crossed it. The water is from a watershed of about 40? acres and goes through a 12 inch culvert. The road bed is about 6-8 feet above grade...

Got a bit more down the road into another low spot where there are two six foot in diameter culverts. I have seen the culverts covered in water. The problem this time was that the low area that holds the creek was so flooded that the water was up to a nearby house's foundation. NEVER seen that before. My guess is the water was 20-30 feet deep. If the water came up another foot or so it would have crossed the road.

These two runs of water go and hit a bigger creek which goes under a major rural highway. Another couple of feet of water and that road would have been flooded.

All of this goes down stream and crosses yet another major highway. That highway DID get over topped and flooded. That has never happened before.

We had other roads in/out of town that were flooded and closes. :shocked: That has never happened before.

I expected to have to drive to the other side of our property, park on other peoples land and walk through the woods to our house because the roads were going to be flooded or destroyed. Thankfully, that did not happens and surprisingly, when I got home ALL of the water was back to normal! :confused3::shocked: Unreal.

We got really, Really, REALLY lucky. But this is unreal and Southern and Eastern NC are going to be recovering for years. Some of the areas flooding now just about recovered from Mathew. :shocked:

Later,
Dan

 

[BAP]

Unfortunately MossRoad, you can稚 cure Stupid.

 

[Sigarms]

Unfortunately MossRoad, you can稚 cure Stupid.

I remember the first time I saw the lower Yough in Pa running at flood stage (about 8' on the gauge). I saw that water and almost crapped myself wondering how anyone would be crazy enough to run it that high.

Years later, I had come down from NY and had done 2 creeks in WV and jumped on that same lower Yough late in the day and ran it with me and a buddy, and it was running about 18', I had to laugh when I observed the people around the river who watched us put on thinking we were nuts and I remember when I was them.

Thing is, the lower Yough in flood stage is still a whole lot easier than the North Fork of the Payette just runnining normal, or heck, even the upper Guley around 4k (just a different type of paddling).

I'll be the fist to admit I did some stupid stuff to get good, but if you aint trying, you're dying anyways.

 

[MossRoad]

I used to enjoy watching the kayakers practice the hard obstacles at the east race. Then I'd jump in and swim past them.... :laughing:

It's funny, all those years I spent on the safety staff at the East Race watching and pulling them out, and I've never been in a kayak on white water. Not once. I've done a lot of white water canoeing and rafting and swimming, but never kayaking. I really enjoyed the canoes. Don't know why I never tried the kayaks. Had plenty of opportunity, that's for sure. Same thing with airplanes. Was around them the first 26 years of my life. Went for plenty of rides. Flew quite a few hours. But never had the desire to get my pilot's license. Went nuts on the motorcycle. Love to drive cars fast, too. Maybe I'll take it up some day.

 

[Soundguy]

We're talking about swift moving water here. How are you going to approach a person in distress (like pinned on a log or tree) head on in a swift moving current with your keel? And it's a rare person that has a spare flotation device on their kayak.

if they are pinned, then they aren't going to try to climb you and flip you like a person stranded in open water and thrashing is. If it's super fast water, throw them a line, throw them a line attached to a type 4 throwable flotation device, etc.

I guess my entire kayak 'krew' I go with are rare.. we all use the type 4 floats as but and back cushions meaning each yakker has 2 throwable flotation devices. We also carry paracords with double carabiners on them to to, be towed with, or drag something. a paracord with carabiner and a type 4 float makes a good toss and retrieve line, or a toss as you pass line.

Reason we do the ropes is because we launch from anywhere. we literally have launnched from places that we had to lower each boat down off a ledge using bow and stern lines for each launch. whatever we have to do.

For the record, I have continously said that a non paddler should not be in anything but still water. I'm not the one saying to sent a novice kayaker into a type 4 rapid on his first day to do search and rescue.... I'm saying an experienced yakker... lets keep those 2 thoughts separate, because they make a huge difference on the outcome.

lets face it.. on a set on top yak that can't be saturated except by more than 3x it's rated load, and self rights... that's the perfect maneuverable rescu craft. add in an experienced operator, and you are set.

 

[Soundguy]

Yeah, you got to start somewhere. Like a shallow lake with a couple experienced people to show you how.

We have a river in town. It's deceivingly dangerous. It looks flat, and appears slow. But it's current is about 6-8mph, and it changes width rapidly. So you're paddling along in a 200' wide section at 5mph, and you round a bend that narrows to 100' and now the current is instantly 10mph, a bridge with three spans is in front of you, and each bridge abutment is 15' wide, so take another 45' out of the width. Now you have 55' of width so your current is now pushing 16-18 mph through each of the four 15' slots. Add to that, there's usually a couple fallen trees hanging on the center abutments and you're now in strainer ****. It's your 2nd day in a kayak....

People just do not know the power of moving water.

I recall guarding during some team practices on the East Race in South Bend. The kayakers were very adamant that they did not need any help, and were actually quite offended if you'd throw them a rope when they got hung up. They'd actually angrilly yell at you.

So, what happens? One of them noses over an obstacle, the tip of their boat jams into something on the bottom, and the water starts pouring over their back, forcing their face and chest down onto their thighs, and that's about that. They aren't going anywhere. They gonna die in about 90 seconds.

Now these are olympic team wannabes. Not inexperienced at all. But they gonna die. No boat can stop above them. No boat can paddle upstream to them. They can't get out of the boat. They can't self rescue. They can't grab a rope if it's tossed to them. They gonna die.

So I radio up to the head gates and they start closing the gates to shut off the water. That takes about 4 minutes. After about 30 seconds, I jump in upstream of the boat and manage to shoot over the obstacle right next to the boat and grab the life vest of the paddler. That slows me down enough so that I can put my feet on the bottom right around where the tip of the boat is stuck. And I am able to grab their chest and pull their head above water enough to get their mouth free. And there I stand for another two minutes until the water goes down enough to free them from the boat.

And what do I get?

Why did it take you so long? Why didn't you throw me a rope? Why do they pay you to stand there? Why? Why? Why? Pinheads.

I'm not sure how my comments about using an experienced kayaker with good gear and white water experience to be a rescue boat kept getting lumped in with the guys that can't swim, have never been on a boat, never held a paddle, and are somehow sent out to rescue people.

I never said that.. not sure why they are being compared continously?

Yes.. start a new kayaker out on open, still water that they can stand in.

Ps out of my kayak group, I'm the only civilian. the rest are ex military or civilian leo. we have army, navy, marines and airforce. One of our group works with florida fish and game, another worked for the sheriff's dept. We have an EMT as well as a first responder and a few of the group are scuba certified. The main guy I go with has all certifications on scuba excluding teaching. he does cave, salvage, open water, etc. My wife is even scuba certified.

 

[MossRoad]

I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing with you. I'm not. Honest.

 

[Soundguy]

Back in the 80s, a very experienced outdoorsman, cannoist and triathalon guy and friend was demonstrating how stable the canoe we were in was. A second later, we and all our stuff were in the water. I was not impressed to say the least.

canoe's have never impressed me. seems just like a way to get alot of gear in the water floating near you.

I'll take a kayak every day and twice on sunday over any other type of personal watercraft. Way more stable, lots more options.. modern ones are positively boyant whell completely submerged and unless grossly overloaded are essentially impossible to sink, and then if you unload them they float. get the correct one and they self right and then you can pull scupper drains and drain them while setting in them, while in the water if at rated loading. lots of nice options such as paddle tethers, fold up emergency paddles. they are way easier to get into in deep water than a sinkable canoe.. you can even get in the set in ones full of water and bail yourself out.. too many positives vs a canoe... worst case, my flipped and partially submerged floating kayak is a flotation device I can hang onto. try that with an aluminum canoe.. you will be at the bottom..

 

[MossRoad]

A kayak in moving water with an inexperienced paddler is death waiting to happen.

Note that I said inexperienced, here.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing with you. I'm not. Honest.

not arguing.. it's just that i'm not referring to sending in newbies to whitewater to do rescue.. but yet that keeps becomming the 'why' part of the statement of why kayaks aren't good for rescue.

 

[MossRoad]

My canoe floats when swamped. Two people can sit in it, and even if its full of water, there's still about 2" of side sticking out of the water. You can splash the water out with your hands or paddle and get most of it out enough to make it easy to paddle to shore. That's one of the first things the taught us in boating safety class.... how to right a swamped canoe in deep water.

 

[BAP]

Another thread going off track and turning into a pi**ing war.

 

[Sigarms]

canoe's have never impressed me. seems just like a way to get alot of gear in the water floating near you.

A good friend, who was a canoeist once told me a C1'r is half the paddle but twice the man. If you ever saw him run big splat, would be hard to argue with him.

I was pretty good in a kayak, not so good in a canoe:laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

Advance to 3:19...

 

[Soundguy]

My canoe floats when swamped. Two people can sit in it, and even if its full of water, there's still about 2" of side sticking out of the water. You can splash the water out with your hands or paddle and get most of it out enough to make it easy to paddle to shore. That's one of the first things the taught us in boating safety class.... how to right a swamped canoe in deep water.

That's good, your canoe may have foamed inner seat blocks. I wish more did. I know many don't, or didn't.. Can't tell you how many sunk aluminum John boats and canoe I have helped people pull from the bottom however. I have permanently setup a tie up point on a jb at my stepfathers house.. Straight aluminum hull..once it swamps, it's like a submarine.. " Dive, Dive Dive! "

Having a self buoyant craft is a huge safety plus.

 

[Soundguy]

Another thread going off track and turning into a pi**ing war.

Discussion on water rescue is not going off track on a storm tracking thread.

Whining about a thread going in a direction you don't like, and claiming it is off topic, when in reality it isn't, however might be off topic if you think about it though...

So in a way.. Your post was self fulfilling.

 

[BAP]

G

Discussion on water rescue is not going off track on a storm tracking thread.

Whining about a thread going in a direction you don't like, and claiming it is off topic, when in reality it isn't, however might be off topic if you think about it though...

So in a way.. Your post was self fulfilling.

Actually you have taken a thread about a storm and turned it into a thread about how great you are and how people everyone else is stupid for using caution in high water. Your arrogance would cause people to think that it is safe to go off have cocked in dangerous flood waters risking lives of First Responders to come pull you out of the water. I know someone that was a first responder who died trying to rescue someone who thought it would be great to ride the rapids in raging floodwaters.

 

[MossRoad]

Sorry about the loss of life. One of the first things they teach you in water safety courses, lifesaving classes, whitewater rescue, is do not attempt a rescue if you think you can't make it. It's harsh. But it's true. I've had several instances of huge, body-builder type guys losing their footing in calm lake water and just absolutely start thrashing around in a blind panic. No way was I gonna try and run up and grab them. I had to wait till they tuckered themselves out. People were screaming at me to save them. No way. They'd have killed me too. My father attempted a rescue in Lake Michigan surf back in the 30's. The guy almost killed him. The guy and my father both had to be rescued.

I saw a guy throw a rope to a girl that got tossed out of a rubber raft. She had a life vest on. She wrapped the rope around herself and tied it in a knot. The current was strong. The guy on the other end of the rope was having trouble holding on, so he clipped the rope to a post. Well, the girl lost her grip on whatever she was holding, the current pulled her downstream, the rope went taught, and now the water starts rushing over the girl pushing her under. She'd bob up and scream. The current would push her under. Bob up and scream, get pushed under again. No one could pull that rope to get it unclipped and she couldn't untie it. My supervisors quickly assessed the situation, ran upstream, dove in, maneuvered over near her and as he passed her, he cut the rope with his knife, freeing her. They floated downstream and we picked them up with the Zodiac boat. She was seconds from death. The guy that threw her the rope never should have had her tie it around her, and he never should have tied it to a post. Despite being trained to never tie off a rope, he tied off a rope. He knew better, but did it anyway. That's how even trained professionals die or cause death when they, for whatever reason, don't follow their training. A dead rescuer is of no use to a victim. It's noble. It's horrible. But sometimes you just have to stop and watch the horror unfold and live with the consequences. It's awful.

 

[Soundguy]

G
Actually you have taken a thread about a storm and turned it into a thread about how great you are and how people everyone else is stupid for using caution in high water. Your arrogance would cause people to think that it is safe to go off have cocked in dangerous flood waters risking lives of First Responders to come pull you out of the water. I know someone that was a first responder who died trying to rescue someone who thought it would be great to ride the rapids in raging floodwaters.

You are reading something into my posts that isn't there. Sounds like some grief and anger issues. Sorry you lost someone.