Need some help with a fitting indentification

[biggziff]

I installed a Kioti 3rd function kit recently. One of the soft lines had a flared fitting that connects to a nipple they provided. The nipple is supposed to go into an existing adapter that had a Banjo fitting (hard line I removed for the install), but the nipple they provided had a groove and a soft, rubber O-ring on it. When I tightened that into the existing adapter, the O-ring had nowhere to go and crushed/deformed. It didn't leak until today when I was using my backhoe. I'm sure I need a different fitting here, but don't know enough about these to know what it's called. I suspect I can buy a nipple that has the correct size to mount into the valve and the smaller, flare fitting so the hose can attach, but again...not sure what it's called or if that's really what I need.

Photos are of the valve with the adapter installed and the banjo fitting I removed and the nipple Kioti provided. I did try another O-ring, but it did the same thing. I'm guessing the adapter is only for a banjo fitting that uses the harder, flatter O-rings.

Let me know if you can help. Thanks

 

[RNeumann]

That looks like a good old banjo fitting. They take a bronze or copper style washer- no o ring.

Banjo fitting - Wikipedia

Boeray 200pcs Metric M5 M6 M8 M10 M12 Red Copper Sealing Flat Washer Assortment Kits https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076W9LYR5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_RbZADb2EC1238

 

[RNeumann]

That looks like a good old banjo fitting. They take a bronze or copper style washer- no o ring.

Banjo fitting - Wikipedia

Boeray 200pcs Metric M5 M6 M8 M10 M12 Red Copper Sealing Flat Washer Assortment Kits https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076W9LYR5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_RbZADb2EC1238

What I don’t know is if the kit was designed to have the banjo fitting adapter removed from the valve body? The adapter is the goldish color vs the gray valve body.

 

[oldnslo]

Biggziff
There are different styles of seals used on that style of connection.
They can be simple brass or copper washers or a steel ring with o-ring captured inside or a special style bolt head with o-ring groove in it. I believe that is what the original banjo bolt had.

Threads are typically either BSPP or metric.

 

[KWentling]

What I don稚 know is if the kit was designed to have the banjo fitting adapter removed from the valve body? The adapter is the goldish color vs the gray valve body.

I would agree with oldnslo, and add that I believe that you need to replace the banjo adapter with the fitting in your kit.

 

[biggziff]

What I don’t know is if the kit was designed to have the banjo fitting adapter removed from the valve body? The adapter is the goldish color vs the gray valve body.

That was my thought as well, but the nipple doesn't fit in the valve without the adapter. These Kioti kits are generally OK, but the instructions are beyond terrible and there's always something missing, not threaded, etc.

 

[biggziff]

Biggziff
There are different styles of seals used on that style of connection.
They can be simple brass or copper washers or a steel ring with o-ring captured inside or a special style bolt head with o-ring groove in it. I believe that is what the original banjo bolt had.

Threads are typically either BSPP or metric.

Thanks.

I believe the OEM adapter is for ORFS harder O-ring face sealing fittings (like a banjo bolt) as it isn't chamfered to accept the softer O-ring like an ORB fitting. Seems that the nipple is designed for an ORB female fitting (male is grooved for the o-ring unlike ORFS fittings and female is chamfered to allow the o-ring to settle in and not be crushed), but the existing adapter is an ORFS style which uses a much harder O-ring that won't crush.

ORB fittings (female is chamfered for softer o-ring)
SAE Straight Thread (ORB)

ORFS (female is face machined for hard o-ring)
O-Ring Face Seal (ORFS)

 

[biggziff]

Biggziff
There are different styles of seals used on that style of connection.
They can be simple brass or copper washers or a steel ring with o-ring captured inside or a special style bolt head with o-ring groove in it. I believe that is what the original banjo bolt had.

Threads are typically either BSPP or metric.

Thanks. If you look at the original banjo bolt in the pic I posted you can see there's no groove for the o-ring (the new nipple has the groove). That's an ORFS fitting. They use a very hard o-ring (looks like an o-ring, but feels more like hard plastic) seal that will not crush or distort when the fitting is torqued. I'm going to try to find nipple that is an ORFS style so I can remove the adapter and run the fitting directly into the valve body with the harder O-ring or a copper/brass crush washer. That should correct this permanently. I just have to figure out what size and style threads are on the original banjo bolt and order the correct nipple.

 

[biggziff]

I think the fitting I need is on this page. Once I figure out what size!

FS643 | Face Seal x JIC 37deg

 

[RNeumann]

That was my thought as well, but the nipple doesn't fit in the valve without the adapter. These Kioti kits are generally OK, but the instructions are beyond terrible and there's always something missing, not threaded, etc.

A bronze or copper washer and some thread sealant or loctite will do the trick.

 

[biggziff]

A bronze or copper washer and some thread sealant or loctite will do the trick.

If the male end of the nipple is too large for the female threaded port on the valve body, how will either of those help?

 

[oldnslo]

What size are the threads in body below the the banjo bolt adapter where it screws into the valve body? Will the nipple screw into the valve body?

ORFS Do not interchange with banjo fittings.

ORFS have an O-ring on the face of them to seal to the fitting face.

 

[biggziff]

What size are the threads in body below the the banjo bolt adapter where it screws into the valve body? Will the nipple screw into the valve body?

ORFS Do not interchange with banjo fittings.

ORFS have an O-ring on the face of them to seal to the fitting face.

The nipple will NOT thread into the valve body or we couldn't be having this discussion.

The banjo bolts I have on every fitting I've removed on this tractor look like the one in the image I posted. Machined face, black, hard o-ring. I realize the female side of the hard pipe that the banjo bolt goes through has a recess for the O-ring. That's why I'm saying I believe I need an ORFS fitting (male/male nipple) to mount to the valve body that is male thread on one end and 1/2" male JIC on the other. I think the valve body female threads are 15mm (plus or minus) so maybe 5/8" NPT?

 

[oldnslo]

try doing a search for BSPP seal washers.

The threads on the banjo bolt are not NPT (tapered threads) they are straight threads typically BSPP or metric.
for reference:
1/4 BSPP is approximately 13.2 mm OD
3/8 BSPP is approximately 16.5 mm OD

 

[biggziff]

try doing a search for BSPP seal washers.

The threads on the banjo bolt are not NPT (tapered threads) they are straight threads typically BSPP or metric.
for reference:
1/4 BSPP is approximately 13.2 mm OD
3/8 BSPP is approximately 16.5 mm OD

Thanks for the information. Seems difficult to identify these fittings! Hopefully, someone local will have something that will work.

 

[oldnslo]

Discount hydraulic hose is a contributor to this site and they have a fitting identification chart on there website. I believe it provides a visual aid with dimensions

From memory 3/8 BSPP has 19 threads/ inch

I believe that both 14 & 16 mm are 1.5 pitch so around 17 threads/ inch

Close enough that a thread gauge is almost required

A good hydraulic supplier should have the equipment to verify what you have

 

[aczlan]

I think the fitting I need is on this page. Once I figure out what size!

FS643 | Face Seal x JIC 37deg

Nope, it's a ORB fitting, to go to JIC you will need something like these: 64 | JIC 37deg x Straight Thread (ORB)
Or just a new oring such as this: 4 | Buna N O-Ring for Straight Thread (ORB)

Aaron Z

 

[biggziff]

Nope, it's a ORB fitting, to go to JIC you will need something like these: 64 | JIC 37deg x Straight Thread (ORB)
Or just a new oring such as this: 4 | Buna N O-Ring for Straight Thread (ORB)

Aaron Z

Aaron, I don't believe the port on the valve body has a chamfer for the O-ring. Would that still use an ORB fitting?

 

[biggziff]

So, before I visit our local hydraulic shop tomorrow, I took some pics and measurements of the fittings, etc. in case anyone cares.

You can see on the gray valve body there is a deep recess and chamfer for the o-ring which lives in a groove on the male side of the male-female adapter that was there from OEM. On the male-male nipple supplied in the kit, you can see an o-ring in a groove, but it's much softer and there is no recess or chamfer on the female side of the male-female adapter to accept the o-ring which is why it tears and deforms. If the male-male nipple supplied in the kit had been the correct size (same on both ends) this likely wouldn't have been an issue. Remove the adapter, thread the nipple in and away we go.

An annoying setback that was unnecessary, but hopefully, it'll be in the rearview after tomorrow.

Thanks for the help. I'm learning a lot.

 

[oldnslo]

The fitting that screws into the valve body looks an O-ring boss style fitting. These can be either SAE American threads or metric ISO 6149. Ports styles are very similar

#6 SAE is 9/16-18 threads
#8 SAE is 3/4-16 threads

Metric sizes
M12x 1.5
M14x 1.5
M16x 1.5
M18 x 1.5