Truck and Horse trailer questions

[bazman82]

Since the horsetrailer.net site is very sparse in active members it seems it would be best to ask here.

We are not quite in the market yet for a new truck but we have been exploring options to upgrade our current 4 horse trailer (2003 Keifer Genesis x440) weekender package. It consists only of a box boot, closest, cabinets on the 4' short wall and the rooftop a/c, heater combo. I have never had it weighed but I would assume empty weight on it is around 6800lbs or so. We would like to move up to a 4 horse with living quarters that would sleep 4,2 in the nose and either a couch and dinette or bunks with the bunks being preferred.

We use a 2015 chevy 2500hd crew cab short bed gas to pull it now. The trucks weigh is roughly 7000lbs with fuel, passengers and supplies. The GVWR is 20500 which leaves the towing capacity for a gooseneck at 13500lbs.

Most of the trailers we have looked at weigh around 9000lbs that would have what we want. 4,500lbs doesnt seem like much to work with when dealing with 4 horses, hay, water and supplies. So we started looking at specs for trucks and even going diesel with a 2500 isnt much of an improvement in towing capacity. We would prefer not to get a dually 3500 because we do use the truck a few times a week to drive into the city.

My wife is strictly chevy or gmc (her horses, her truck). I only just recently started looking at what RAM has to offer and for the equivalent RAM has to Chevy (2500 crew cab 4x4 shortbed), the RAMs towing capacity for gooseneck is 16300 if i remember correctly. Personally I like the new look of RAM compared to any other trucks out there right now. Chevy would be next. Ram also seem to be quite a bit lower in price.

What are your guys experience towing with a new RAM 2500 crew/mega cab vs new chevy equivalent? How heavy of a trailer with the gooseneck? Hills or strictly flat? We drive both about an equal amount of time. I would like to guess if we got the trailer we wanted, it would weigh close to 15000lbs fully loaded.

 

[oliver1555]

Since the horsetrailer.net site is very sparse in active members it seems it would be best to ask here.

We are not quite in the market yet for a new truck but we have been exploring options to upgrade our current 4 horse trailer (2003 Keifer Genesis x440) weekender package. It consists only of a box boot, closest, cabinets on the 4' short wall and the rooftop a/c, heater combo. I have never had it weighed but I would assume empty weight on it is around 6800lbs or so. We would like to move up to a 4 horse with living quarters that would sleep 4,2 in the nose and either a couch and dinette or bunks with the bunks being preferred.

We use a 2015 chevy 2500hd crew cab short bed gas to pull it now. The trucks weigh is roughly 7000lbs with fuel, passengers and supplies. The GVWR is 20500 which leaves the towing capacity for a gooseneck at 13500lbs.

Most of the trailers we have looked at weigh around 9000lbs that would have what we want. 4,500lbs doesnt seem like much to work with when dealing with 4 horses, hay, water and supplies. So we started looking at specs for trucks and even going diesel with a 2500 isnt much of an improvement in towing capacity. We would prefer not to get a dually 3500 because we do use the truck a few times a week to drive into the city.

My wife is strictly chevy or gmc (her horses, her truck). I only just recently started looking at what RAM has to offer and for the equivalent RAM has to Chevy (2500 crew cab 4x4 shortbed), the RAMs towing capacity for gooseneck is 16300 if i remember correctly. Personally I like the new look of RAM compared to any other trucks out there right now. Chevy would be next. Ram also seem to be quite a bit lower in price.

What are your guys experience towing with a new RAM 2500 crew/mega cab vs new chevy equivalent? How heavy of a trailer with the gooseneck? Hills or strictly flat? We drive both about an equal amount of time. I would like to guess if we got the trailer we wanted, it would weigh close to 15000lbs fully loaded.

If I were buying new, I would go with a ram 3500 single rear wheel because you can get the Aisin transmission behind the Cummins.

 

[bazman82]

I would prefer to stay with gas for cost reasons if I look at new. If I were to find a nice used diesel, then I would consider it.

 

[deerefan]

I would prefer to stay with gas for cost reasons if I look at new. If I were to find a nice used diesel, then I would consider it.

We bought this 18 Ram used for 39k with 16k miles. Leather, 4wd, Cummins. Pulls our 3 horse loaded fine. Also pulls my gooseneck with tractor and implement, which weighs around 9k lbs not counting trailer, fine. I would recommend a diesel for your weights strictly based on power and efficiency, not to mention durability. We have 48k miles on ours now, good truck, no complaints.

 

[ddbackhoe]

Since the horsetrailer.net site is very sparse in active members it seems it would be best to ask here.

We are not quite in the market yet for a new truck but we have been exploring options to upgrade our current 4 horse trailer (2003 Keifer Genesis x440) weekender package. It consists only of a box boot, closest, cabinets on the 4' short wall and the rooftop a/c, heater combo. I have never had it weighed but I would assume empty weight on it is around 6800lbs or so. We would like to move up to a 4 horse with living quarters that would sleep 4,2 in the nose and either a couch and dinette or bunks with the bunks being preferred.

We use a 2015 chevy 2500hd crew cab short bed gas to pull it now. The trucks weigh is roughly 7000lbs with fuel, passengers and supplies. The GVWR is 20500 which leaves the towing capacity for a gooseneck at 13500lbs.

Most of the trailers we have looked at weigh around 9000lbs that would have what we want. 4,500lbs doesnt seem like much to work with when dealing with 4 horses, hay, water and supplies. So we started looking at specs for trucks and even going diesel with a 2500 isnt much of an improvement in towing capacity. We would prefer not to get a dually 3500 because we do use the truck a few times a week to drive into the city.

My wife is strictly chevy or gmc (her horses, her truck). I only just recently started looking at what RAM has to offer and for the equivalent RAM has to Chevy (2500 crew cab 4x4 shortbed), the RAMs towing capacity for gooseneck is 16300 if i remember correctly. Personally I like the new look of RAM compared to any other trucks out there right now. Chevy would be next. Ram also seem to be quite a bit lower in price.

What are your guys experience towing with a new RAM 2500 crew/mega cab vs new chevy equivalent? How heavy of a trailer with the gooseneck? Hills or strictly flat? We drive both about an equal amount of time. I would like to guess if we got the trailer we wanted, it would weigh close to 15000lbs fully loaded.

I have a Lakota 8315 (3 horse, 15 ft living) empty weight is 10500 with horses, feed, tack, clothes, water, etc 14300. I use a Dodge 3500 C&C DRW, 6.7 w/aisin and my next tow vehicle will be a 45 or 5500 (preferably with air ride). I want something with better braking because Ive been in a couple spots where the trailer pushed the truck more than I want to be comfortable with.
Our friends have a Lakota LQ w/bunks and a 16 ft. Livestock area. They use a Ford 350 SRW and every time he hitches up I shake my head in disbelief watching the truck squat down on the overloads.
I was at an event last weekend and the 4 Horse LQs were hitched to 450s and 3 of them had Freightliner M2s Maybe you could buy the trailer then take the horses out on the new truck test drives? A LQ trailer definitely pulls and feels different than an equipment trailer.
Ive been to Otter Creek, any other great places around there?

 

[bigtiller]

bazman82

My wife is strictly chevy or gmc (her horses, her truck). I only just recently started looking at what RAM has to offer

If I were in your shoes I would be looking at "strictly chevy or gmc"

 

[wagne223]

In light duty trucks, the towing capacity is limited by the chassis not the engine. That is why the ratings you saw did not change much.
To get a gross combination weight over 20k pounds, you would need to step up to medium duty trucks.
It sounds like the trailer you are considering would be pushing the limit of a light duty truck in real world use.

Of course every day I see people hauling multiple cars around with light duty trucks. The car haulers baffle me because those guys are subject to DOT and weigh stations.

You mentioned not wanting dual rear wheels. You need to look at the maximum pin weight a single wheel truck can carry then find a trailer that is under that while loaded.

Toy hauler type trailers(living quarter in front and garage in back) are pin heavy compared to standard RV. I would assume the horse trailer is similar.

 

[bazman82]

bazman82


If I were in your shoes I would be looking at "strictly chevy or gmc"

Hah, well her uncle and cousins have older rams. I dont hear many issues from them but I know I am not entirely brand specific. I have been talking Ram to her lately and she hasnt completely shaken it off yet. If i mention ford though...oh man, all bets are off and the search for a new truck will end there ...

I actually just went to look at a 2018 Diesel with 27k miles on it but they "sold it" yesterday. Deal isnt finalized so i may hear back from the dealership. 41,900 is their price on it. As far as living quarters go, I dont think ill be getting something bigger than a 10' short wall. I believe the heaviest trailer I found that I liked was 10500lbs empty but I found plenty under 10k lbs that would work as well. Our truck barely squats with our trailer on the back. We didnt do any added suspension either. When we purchased the truck, it had the snow plow package because we were told it had the heavier suspension already there. I know when I buy cow feed, I'll put 2k lbs back there and it just about levels the truck out, no squatting.

 

[bazman82]

In light duty trucks, the towing capacity is limited by the chassis not the engine. That is why the ratings you saw did not change much.
To get a gross combination weight over 20k pounds, you would need to step up to medium duty trucks.
It sounds like the trailer you are considering would be pushing the limit of a light duty truck in real world use.

Of course every day I see people hauling multiple cars around with light duty trucks. The car haulers baffle me because those guys are subject to DOT and weigh stations.

You mentioned not wanting dual rear wheels. You need to look at the maximum pin weight a single wheel truck can carry then find a trailer that is under that while loaded.

Toy hauler type trailers(living quarter in front and garage in back) are pin heavy compared to standard RV. I would assume the horse trailer is similar.

By pin weight, you mean the weight at the ball in the bed of the truck from the trailer?

 

[bazman82]

https://www.townechryslerdodgejeep....Ram-2500-674a968b0a0e0ae9508e6b30d67c9965.htm

The wife said she doesnt mind this one.

I have yet been to Otter creek but it is on our list. We have only gone to Allegany state park and some other small areas around us. Waiting till our 3 and 5 yr olds get a bit older so they can ride the longer trails with us.

 

[wagne223]

By pin weight, you mean the weight at the ball in the bed of the truck from the trailer?

Yes.

Also remember that the suspension is only one factor. The tires are usually the limiting factor.

 

[jayincmh]

I just bought a HD Ram 2500 with the Cummins turbo diesel. LOVE it. Had a deposit on an F250 and the dealer sold it to someone else when I was supposed to take delivery. Took me a while to get my deposit back. Went and negotiated a great deal on the Ram 2500. It's got the plow package, the 5th wheel prep kit, full size bed, crew cab, and...saving the best for last...auto-leveling air suspension. No other truck MFG'r offered that. It keeps the truck level under load, and actively monitors and adjusts while driving. I drive a ot of hills and curves in the Appalachian foot hills, and this truck is SOLID. I was ultimately able to negotiate almost 20% off MSRP. And get this...my old 1500 Ram Big Horn used to average 13.5 (combined) MPG. I'm getting almost 18 (combined) MPG on this Cummins.

I pull heavy tractors, horse trailers, and other equip. My *towing capacity* is rated at close to 19,000lbs.

Stay away from the Power Wagon. It's capacity is only around 10,000lbs. Different axle setup.

Test drive both trucks. I did. You won't be sorry.

 

[bazman82]

I just bought a HD Ram 2500 with the Cummins turbo diesel. LOVE it. Had a deposit on an F250 and the dealer sold it to someone else when I was supposed to take delivery. Took me a while to get my deposit back. Went and negotiated a great deal on the Ram 2500. It's got the plow package, the 5th wheel prep kit, full size bed, crew cab, and...saving the best for last...auto-leveling air suspension. No other truck MFG'r offered that. It keeps the truck level under load, and actively monitors and adjusts while driving. I drive a ot of hills and curves in the Appalachian foot hills, and this truck is SOLID. I was ultimately able to negotiate almost 20% off MSRP. And get this...my old 1500 Ram Big Horn used to average 13.5 (combined) MPG. I'm getting almost 18 (combined) MPG on this Cummins.

I pull heavy tractors, horse trailers, and other equip. My *towing capacity* is rated at close to 19,000lbs.

Stay away from the Power Wagon. It's capacity is only around 10,000lbs. Different axle setup.

Test drive both trucks. I did. You won't be sorry.

Ah cool. Thanks, its good to know. Ive been reading that the rams have been decent on mileage so thats a plus. How big is the tank on yours? 20% off sounds great, I assume that was prob around 10k off the msrp then?

 

[nikerret]

A 15,000 lbs trailer will put approximately 3,000 to 3,750 lbs on the tow vehicle (20-25%). Assuming you and your wife and all the things in the truck weigh less than 500 lbs, you’re looking at needing around 4,000 lbs payload, on the truck. Take the GVWR of the truck (hint: no way in **** is your 2500 truck rated at that) minus the weight if the truck, that’s your payload rating. Now, you have to see how much weight is on each axle. That, too, will be on the sticker in the driver door jamb. You can be under payload, but over in axle, etc.

For that much trailer, you need a heavy duty 3500. Dually would be better, maybe required (depends if you would be happy with a lower trim/less options model). Good news is you can skip the diesel. GM has a new 6.6L gas that would be perfect, for around 15,000 lbs. the best part about a gas engine is you also get more payload capacity.

 

[nikerret]

Here’s the 2019 Chevrolet 3500 specs. Remember, this is going to be base weights. Options will come out of payload. Also, this is 2019, so the 6.0L is the gas engine. Next year, the weights will be slightly different.

 

[bazman82]

https://www.gmcertified.com/PDFs/ModelLibrary/Chevrolet/Silverado HD/2015-Chevrolet-Silverado-HD.pdf

Here is the link to the specs of my truck. It is a 2015 2500HD crew cab 4x4 short bed. It has the Vortec 6.0L V8. GVWR is 20,500.

So the wife wants to wait now. She would prefer to pay off the lien we have on the truck (4.5yrs left, my fault since I used the truck as collateral to buy my tractor for a better rate). Without any negotiations, a dealership would give us 30k for our truck towards a purchase. I believe I owe like 18k or something. I almost feel we would make out better now, than 4 years from now...Plus shes still not completely convinced of the ram so then we'd be looking at those chevy 3500 duallys...$$$

 

[nikerret]

From the document you posted, your GVWR is 9,500-10,000, depending on factors. The GCWR, which you keep referring to as GVWR is 20,500 lbs. Huge difference. The GVWR is how much that vehicle can handle. For a truck and trailer, they will each have their own GVWR. The truck has to hold its own weight, the weight of passengers and cargo (in/on the truck), and the tongue weight of the trailer, all at or under the GVWR of the truck. The trailer must be at or below its GVWR when not attached to the tow vehicle. Some trailers list a higher GVWR to make up for transferred tongue weight, some do not.

This is important because legally, the GCWR is a made up number, from assumptions made by the manufacturer. The GVWR is a number you can be cited/ticketed/charged with a crime, for going over. If the GVWR is okay, axles and tires are the next common weight issues. In civil court, if you get sued, it will all be used against you. The Trooper won’t know or care, so long as the GVWR’s are not exceeded.

Here’s the GVWR, from the document you posted:

 

[nikerret]

Further down the document, you can see you have a GVWR of 9,500 and a posted payload of 2,950. Generally, this payload does not include options. See the door jamb for a closer number.

Even with these numbers, your truck probably weighs between 5,500 and 6,500 lbs. At 6,500, that only allows 3,000 lbs for passengers, cargo, and tongue weight. Say people and stuff in truck is 500 lbs, that leaves 2,500 lbs, for trailer tongue weight to max out GVWR of your truck. That truck can legally haul 10,000-12,500 lbs (25% tongue weight versus 20%) on a gooseneck or fifth wheel.

2500 series trucks can always pull more than they can really hold to haul.

 

[bazman82]

Further down the document, you can see you have a GVWR of 9,500 and a posted payload of 2,950. Generally, this payload does not include options. See the door jamb for a closer number.

Even with these numbers, your truck probably weighs between 5,500 and 6,500 lbs. At 6,500, that only allows 3,000 lbs for passengers, cargo, and tongue weight. Say people and stuff in truck is 500 lbs, that leaves 2,500 lbs, for trailer tongue weight to max out GVWR of your truck. That truck can legally haul 10,000-12,500 lbs (25% tongue weight versus 20%) on a gooseneck or fifth wheel.

2500 series trucks can always pull more than they can really hold to haul.

Thanks, that actually all just clicked. Treating the truck and trailer as separate parts and including the trailer tongue weight as part of the trucks individual capacity. I only see the weight issue being a legal issue if there was an accident of some sort if I was over weight. I know with my current set up I'm not over the limit or else something may have already broke.

 

[JIGBUILDER]

The truck makers GVWR ...payload sticker is not used to determine how much load the truck can carry....or is it used in any civil court case if its exceeded causing death or injury or property damage..... or will a DOT officer use it to write a overweight ticket. However exceeding a axle or tire rating or a declared gross combined weight can result in tickets....civil lawsuits/etc
I ran commercial legally for over eleven years and 1.2 miliom mile of crash and ticket free service using mostly one ton DRW trucks.

All vehicles on the road come under states axle/tire load restrictions.

GM give's their 2500 trucks a 6200 rawr. Max rawr loads can be in the 3000-3400 lb range depending on actual scaled dry axle weights which can vary depending on trucks configuration. They all don't weigh the same.

Just stay under the trucks fawr/rawr or a registered weight. That way your legal....safe.....no tickets....no civil lawsuits.