Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

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   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #301  
It is interesting that crude oil processing results in a volume GAIN...

A standard 42 gallon barrel of oil actually averages 45 gallons of refined products.

Pretty Efficient processing.
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.
  • Thread Starter
#302  
As a retired engineer I say the above thinking is exactly the kind of ignorance that keeps things from ever getting done.

One must consider availability. If 65W is shed as heat and "only" 35W is converted to mechanical motion, then while this is "35% efficient" and sounds bad the real question is wether one can get more useful work out of a gallon of gasoline or not? The answer is "not realistically". So if you do not use that gallon of gasoline and get 35% of useful work out of it the alternative is that you get 0% use out of it.

The problem is while one can measure that 65% "wasted" energy that it isn't useable. Most is in the engine coolant at 180ーF which just isn't hot enough over ambient temperatures to do much. Heat in the exhaust is needed to complete the thermodynamic cycle and get the exhaust out of the tailpipe.

Before the automobile the light hydrocarbons used to make gasoline were considered junk and flamed immediately at the refinery. The good stuff was heating and lamp oil, diesel today. We have a similar problem today with natural gas. Have too much. That much is burned at the well because idiot politicians won't allow pipelines to ship it to were it could be used. Tanking natural gas is very expensive. Takes a lot of energy to compress and even then it is not very dense. Same problem with hydrogen, only H2 can not be piped. 95% of H2 comes from natural gas because the process is cheap, natural gas is plentiful.

I say one must consider the resources consumed to bring energy to the user in usable format. I say one must consider $2.50/gallon for gasoline and what useful work one can get from it vs. $2.50 of electricity. In Gale's case no amount of electricity could trailer his new LEAF home, but gasoline got the job done. Could have found charging stations between here and there, and possibly taken 24 hours to go the distance. Or do it the way he did and burn some gasoline. How much is your time worth? Amazingly little is consumed producing gasoline because in that $2.50 perhaps 100 people got paid for their efforts.

When conditions are right one can use electricity cheaper than gasoline, and vice versa. And that is the beauty of Free Market Capitalism. No one is willing to work for free so at each stage of production the contribution of each is accumulated into the final cost of the product. If they can't do as well as another then the consumer is free to use the other. The failing is when simplistic voices latch on to terms such as "efficiency" and effect faux forces to force economics to do their will. That is Leftist economics where Those Wiser Than You decree what your effort is worth and what you must pay for goods all because They Are Smarter Than You Or The Market.

Grumpycat thanks for your points of view that can be helpful to new EV owners like myself and others thinking of getting an EV down the road. That is one reason I got the Leaf now so I can learn from current EV owners. The article below is about "clean" hydro power that may not be so clean after all when looking at the by-products of man made lakes.

The hydropower paradox: is this energy as clean as it seems? | Guardian Sustainable Business | The Guardian
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #303  
In radio interview, they said China just eliminated subsidy for ev. Mandate 4 percent of cars sales are ev now
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.
  • Thread Starter
#304  
In radio interview, they said China just eliminated subsidy for ev. Mandate 4 percent of cars sales are ev now


Beijing’s subsidy cut is starting to hurt its largest EV maker BYD — Quartz

"China plans to move away completely from subsidies in 2020, replacing them with a credit-trading system. Meanwhile, as the Chinese auto market is expected to continue to slow amid the trade war with the US and a decelerating domestic economy, EV makers will be left to navigate under their own power."

BYD is the company making delivery vans for a test run in CA I think.
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #305  
Somebody put a photo online of gas station prices near an Amazon warehouse and CHP hq. Their vehicles likely carry a negotiated-rate credit card. I recall Caltrans' ~10,000 pieces of equipment each had its own card.

But the public driving down I-80 toward SF and taking this offramp - are getting scr***d. $5.40!! And $5 Diesel.

d3x5mpxdw3x31.png
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.
  • Thread Starter
#306  
Somebody put a photo online of gas station prices near an Amazon warehouse and CHP hq. Their vehicles likely carry a negotiated-rate credit card. I recall Caltrans' ~10,000 pieces of equipment each had its own card.

But the public driving down I-80 toward SF and taking this offramp - are getting scr***d. $5.40!! And $5 Diesel.

d3x5mpxdw3x31.png

Wow no wonder there are so many EV's in CA. Locally it is running $2.25 to $2.50 most days. Even at that rate the Leaf energy cost is only about 35-40% of the cost of gas locally.
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #307  
Three big strikes against wide spread implementation of EV's in the US. (from my own perspective)

Distribution infrastructure. We already are being incentivized or penalized for electricity usage due to season, time or location.
The "no nukes" and "Not in my back yard" popular sentiment limits adding . Has the calculation been done on what it would take to REPLACE the energy now supplied by gasoline and road fuel? Again, Not in my back yard! But that energy has to come from somewhere!

Then there is the time ... wasted.... while the batteries recharge. Perhaps there is no price on that. Perhaps such "delays" could be "converted" to pleasant activities that might reverse the evils in our addiction to driving. Something to re-humanize the experience of life. But do the math, and make every fuel stop across the nation into a 45 minute "I'm bored, let's eat" pit stop. Then double the number of stops, because My vehicles get near or over 400 miles per fill up and that's winter and summer up and down some real hills. I really don't like to stop when I travel. Stops are hard on my waistline. (Think of the obesity issues associated with food vendors at recharge stations every two hours.)

Then there is the anxiety of always wondering if you can make it to your distant destination. Gas is easy... but the emotion comes with a needle moving to empty without assurance of a refill.

Well, that's more than three strikes.

Still, I would consider an EV, I'm thinking hard about an ebike. ;-)
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #308  
As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.
 
   / Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow. #310  
As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.

No room for the fuel tank ;-)
 
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