Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[sd455dan]

It is interesting that crude oil processing results in a volume GAIN...

A standard 42 gallon barrel of oil actually averages 45 gallons of refined products.

Pretty Efficient processing.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

As a retired engineer I say the above thinking is exactly the kind of ignorance that keeps things from ever getting done.

One must consider availability. If 65W is shed as heat and "only" 35W is converted to mechanical motion, then while this is "35% efficient" and sounds bad the real question is wether one can get more useful work out of a gallon of gasoline or not? The answer is "not realistically". So if you do not use that gallon of gasoline and get 35% of useful work out of it the alternative is that you get 0% use out of it.

The problem is while one can measure that 65% "wasted" energy that it isn't useable. Most is in the engine coolant at 180ｰF which just isn't hot enough over ambient temperatures to do much. Heat in the exhaust is needed to complete the thermodynamic cycle and get the exhaust out of the tailpipe.

Before the automobile the light hydrocarbons used to make gasoline were considered junk and flamed immediately at the refinery. The good stuff was heating and lamp oil, diesel today. We have a similar problem today with natural gas. Have too much. That much is burned at the well because idiot politicians won't allow pipelines to ship it to were it could be used. Tanking natural gas is very expensive. Takes a lot of energy to compress and even then it is not very dense. Same problem with hydrogen, only H2 can not be piped. 95% of H2 comes from natural gas because the process is cheap, natural gas is plentiful.

I say one must consider the resources consumed to bring energy to the user in usable format. I say one must consider $2.50/gallon for gasoline and what useful work one can get from it vs. $2.50 of electricity. In Gale's case no amount of electricity could trailer his new LEAF home, but gasoline got the job done. Could have found charging stations between here and there, and possibly taken 24 hours to go the distance. Or do it the way he did and burn some gasoline. How much is your time worth? Amazingly little is consumed producing gasoline because in that $2.50 perhaps 100 people got paid for their efforts.

When conditions are right one can use electricity cheaper than gasoline, and vice versa. And that is the beauty of Free Market Capitalism. No one is willing to work for free so at each stage of production the contribution of each is accumulated into the final cost of the product. If they can't do as well as another then the consumer is free to use the other. The failing is when simplistic voices latch on to terms such as "efficiency" and effect faux forces to force economics to do their will. That is Leftist economics where Those Wiser Than You decree what your effort is worth and what you must pay for goods all because They Are Smarter Than You Or The Market.

Grumpycat thanks for your points of view that can be helpful to new EV owners like myself and others thinking of getting an EV down the road. That is one reason I got the Leaf now so I can learn from current EV owners. The article below is about "clean" hydro power that may not be so clean after all when looking at the by-products of man made lakes.

The hydropower paradox: is this energy as clean as it seems? | Guardian Sustainable Business | The Guardian

 

[Streetcar]

In radio interview, they said China just eliminated subsidy for ev. Mandate 4 percent of cars sales are ev now

 

[Gale Hawkins]

In radio interview, they said China just eliminated subsidy for ev. Mandate 4 percent of cars sales are ev now

Beijing’s subsidy cut is starting to hurt its largest EV maker BYD — Quartz

"China plans to move away completely from subsidies in 2020, replacing them with a credit-trading system. Meanwhile, as the Chinese auto market is expected to continue to slow amid the trade war with the US and a decelerating domestic economy, EV makers will be left to navigate under their own power."

BYD is the company making delivery vans for a test run in CA I think.

 

[California]

Somebody put a photo online of gas station prices near an Amazon warehouse and CHP hq. Their vehicles likely carry a negotiated-rate credit card. I recall Caltrans' ~10,000 pieces of equipment each had its own card.

But the public driving down I-80 toward SF and taking this offramp - are getting scr***d. $5.40!! And $5 Diesel.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Somebody put a photo online of gas station prices near an Amazon warehouse and CHP hq. Their vehicles likely carry a negotiated-rate credit card. I recall Caltrans' ~10,000 pieces of equipment each had its own card.

But the public driving down I-80 toward SF and taking this offramp - are getting scr***d. $5.40!! And $5 Diesel.

Wow no wonder there are so many EV's in CA. Locally it is running $2.25 to $2.50 most days. Even at that rate the Leaf energy cost is only about 35-40% of the cost of gas locally.

 

[CalG]

Three big strikes against wide spread implementation of EV's in the US. (from my own perspective)

Distribution infrastructure. We already are being incentivized or penalized for electricity usage due to season, time or location.
The "no nukes" and "Not in my back yard" popular sentiment limits adding . Has the calculation been done on what it would take to REPLACE the energy now supplied by gasoline and road fuel? Again, Not in my back yard! But that energy has to come from somewhere!

Then there is the time ... wasted.... while the batteries recharge. Perhaps there is no price on that. Perhaps such "delays" could be "converted" to pleasant activities that might reverse the evils in our addiction to driving. Something to re-humanize the experience of life. But do the math, and make every fuel stop across the nation into a 45 minute "I'm bored, let's eat" pit stop. Then double the number of stops, because My vehicles get near or over 400 miles per fill up and that's winter and summer up and down some real hills. I really don't like to stop when I travel. Stops are hard on my waistline. (Think of the obesity issues associated with food vendors at recharge stations every two hours.)

Then there is the anxiety of always wondering if you can make it to your distant destination. Gas is easy... but the emotion comes with a needle moving to empty without assurance of a refill.

Well, that's more than three strikes.

Still, I would consider an EV, I'm thinking hard about an ebike. ;-)

 

[airbiscuit]

As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.

 

[CalG]

So how do a towns streets exist?

Canadian man told his curb, damaged 26 years ago, to be repaired in 237 | Fox News

This is what happens when "government" get the say of what and when. Try to reduce government whenever you can.

 

[CalG]

As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.

No room for the fuel tank ;-)

 

[CalG]

As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.

We will Never see Silicon based photo voltaics replace significant capacity.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I have yet to see any major wreck pictures of electric vehicles. Are the dynamics much different?

search

I did find this list of wrecked Leafs tonight. Of course they are all for parts or are rebuild able or they would not be listed so I am sure there are mangled ones out there somewhere. One did have the charger/inverter/motor driven back into the firewall yet the cabin and glass seemed to be intact in most of them. Lot of blown air bags but the passenger spaces seemed ok so I took that as a positive sign. Clearly the rear hatches do not hold up well when rear ended. I just hope to never test ours crash worthiness.

This is our sixth Nissan (just the first one without a gas tank) and even with the 1973 forward we never were in a serious accident. If Nissan's next generations of EV's do well I expect we will stick with Nissan EV's going forward. There are some other brands that I like but I expect we will keep buying used and if new I can not see spending $50K-$100K for sure.

 

[California]

Then there is the time ... wasted.... while the batteries recharge. Perhaps there is no price on that. Perhaps such "delays" could be "converted" to pleasant activities I really don't like to stop when I travel.

Then there is the anxiety of always wondering if you can make it...

As I replied to a Texan, the majority of the US population doesn't live out where long trips are common. Most urban families would keep a gas pickup or van as a second car for their infrequent towing, hauling, and the infrequent road trip.

The average and also most popular commute time in the US, home to work, is 20 minutes. Soccer mommy stuff, shopping, entertainment, aren't long trips outside a short radius. An EV owner would never see the fearful 'long delay' in these typical activities. Christmas at Grandma's? Everybody pile into the van or 4 door pickup.

These aren't an answer to everything, rather, they are well suited to where an urban household (80% of Americans) puts miles on one of their multiple vehicles.

 

[Gunny]

My wife has a 7 mile one way commute to her job, but she's constantly driving into town (also 7 miles) for one thing or the other. I've wondered if it would make sense to get an EV just for her.

When she's not working, we go into the big cities often, which would involve more than 100 miles round trip, no charging stations in the areas we go to, so she would have to keep her present car, which we just bought two months ago.

I do have my diesel pickup, but it's primarily for towing the 5th wheel and farm use, plus like all 1 ton trucks, it's a rough riding son of a gun, so it's rarely used to our outings, unless we're going to pick up something while we're out that's large enough to require the truck.

I'm convinced that her short trip driving would be considerably cheaper with an EV than it would with her present car, but I'm also wondering if any potential savings would be absorbed in the additional expense of insurance, maintenance and taxes on a third vehicle.

 

[Jstpssng]

I was in the small border town of Jackman Maine this week. (population, not many.) They really are on the edge of nowhere, the nearest major US town is Skowhegan (population 8200), which is 75 miles away. Timber is the major industry there so diesel rules. Tourists generally are up to go hunting, ATVing, or snowsledding depending on the season.
Yet one convenience store just replaced it's 4 generic EV chargers with as many Tesla chargers. The clerk says these get a lot of use from people on their way through, going to or from Quebec. The same store also has a working payphone on an outside wall; and even has free air if your tires are low. I can't remember the last time that I saw free air, most places now have those pay machines which take forever to pump your tires, and usually shut off just as you get to the fourth one.

 

[Industrial Toys]

The expensive electric vehicles no doubt have their tires filled with nitrogen.

 

[4570Man]

The expensive electric vehicles no doubt have their tires filled with nitrogen.

All my my equipment does too. Well 78 percent worth.

 

[CalG]

As I replied to a Texan, the majority of the US population doesn't live out where long trips are common. Most urban families would keep a gas pickup or van as a second car for their infrequent towing, hauling, and the infrequent road trip.

The average and also most popular commute time in the US, home to work, is 20 minutes. Soccer mommy stuff, shopping, entertainment, aren't long trips outside a short radius. An EV owner would never see the fearful 'long delay' in these typical activities. Christmas at Grandma's? Everybody pile into the van or 4 door pickup.

These aren't an answer to everything, rather, they are well suited to where an urban household (80% of Americans) puts miles on one of their multiple vehicles.

Ahh This is a TRACTOR forum. I don't know who those people are that need or want an ev. I certainly can not speak for them.

jus' say'in

 

[Industrial Toys]

I love and use my E-Gator probably more on the farm than any other single piece of equipment.

 

[California]

Ahh This is a TRACTOR forum. I don't know who those people are that need or want an ev.

Me!

I make the 100 mile (each way) run between home in an urban area, and the ranch (orchard) where my two tractors are, nearly weekly. It's 80% of the miles I put on a car.

I've been badly tempted to buy a Bolt to use for this run. If it just had the cargo space of my Focus Wagon that does this trip nearly always loaded full up, I would already own the Bolt.

Chevy said a mini-suv on the Bolt platform will be the next version released. That or possibly a Tesla Y will replace the now 16 year old Focus.