Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[3930dave]

EV vs ICE vehicles: how much energy is wasted? FLIR T1K thermal camera at FC Live | Fully Charged - YouTube

EV vs ICE vehicles: how much energy is wasted? FLIR T1K thermal camera at FC Live

This shows the hot spot is the engine in an ICE car and the battery in the EV. No surprise but I still found it interesting. Both radiate a lot of heat.

Thermals..... not to be ignored.

You've done plenty of research Gale, so will have come across thermal derating on batteries. As well as low temperature, there may be some derating on your Leaf at high temperatures - meaning not capacity, but limiting the current draw on the pack to protect it.

As a comparison - Escape hybrids use active AC cooling on the battery pack, to deal with high ambient temperatures. A buddy of mine who's done a lot of research on both (older versions), commented the Leaf does not use active cooling to that extent. Yours is new enough that it may approach that issue differently.

I don't expect that you're planning to pull a tri-axle float with your Leaf next Summer , just passing along some 411.....

(Difficult (very) to get away from thermal losses in any system...... take one of the appropriate FLIR distance cameras outside at night, and have a look at HV transmission lines :thumbsup.

Rgds, D.

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
Try standing under those same lines in a snowstorm, listening to the flakes hit the wires.

 

[California]

Thermals..... not to be ignored.... Escape hybrids use active AC cooling on the battery pack, to deal with high ambient temperatures. ... [early?] Leaf does not use active cooling

This is an issue widely discussed in Bolt forums, and I assume Tesla's as well. GM saw the rapid aging caused by Leaf's absence of cooling, so Bolt was designed with extensive cooling. Also the apparent capacity of the Bolt battery is a little less than its real capacity. The result is customer satisfaction with a battery that doesn't seem to age and holds its specs for several years with minimal degradation. Bolts now over 100k miles and 3 years are showing very small declines in battery capacity and the 8 year warranty on the battery won't be needed by most owners.

 

[3930dave]

This is an issue widely discussed in Bolt forums, and I assume Tesla's as well. GM saw the rapid aging caused by Leaf's absence of cooling, so Bolt was designed with extensive cooling. Also the apparent capacity of the Bolt battery is a little less than its real capacity. The result is customer satisfaction with a battery that doesn't seem to age and holds its specs for several years with minimal degradation. Bolts now over 100k miles and 3 years are showing very small declines in battery capacity and the 8 year warranty on the battery won't be needed by most owners.

You mean..... It actually Goes to 11 ?

Spinal Tap - "These go to eleven...." - YouTube

Sorry, couldn't resist..... yep, I think many (more likely most/all) vehicle companies derate 100% at the start of life, as described.

Rgds, D.

 

[Grumpycat]

What does it cost to charge an electriic vehicle? How long does it take? Do they rate them in $ per kWh?

Fuel Economy will answer your question as to how much electricity is consumed per mile.

Nissan LEAF (62kWh battery) consumes 31 kWh/100 miles.
2020 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus consumes 24 kWh/100 miles.

At $0.10/kWh the LEAF costs $0.031/mile, Model 3 costs $0.023/mile. I disagree with the EPA's dumbing down of an MPGe based on kWh of gasoline. I say "efficiency" doesn't matter, only cost matters. The Almighty Dollar is the only accurate measure of resource consumption which also includes availability and scarcity. So at $3.00/gallon for gasoline the LEAF gets 96 MPG$ and Model 3 gets 125 MPG$. Or at $2.00/gallon it is 64 and 83 MPG$ respectively.

EPA ratings are measured at the power grid and include all charging and storage losses. Unlike gasoline MPG ratings the EV consumption ratings are pretty accurate.

The typical 240V 40A circuit for 32A to charge a LEAF delivers 7kW for about 22 miles of range added per hour of slow charging at home. So what? Plug in every night and it is full by morning.

For the same price a Tesla Wall Connector on a 60A circuit will deliver 48A and 11.5kW for nearly 50 miles per hour of charging. On a Tesla Supercharger it can easily hit 500 miles per hour of charging as most are capable of 120kW rates and the newer V3 Superchargers have 250kW per vehicle. This isn't empty promise but actual fact available at 727 sites in the USA and 125 more under construction.

As for the cost of the vehicle, "deals are to be had." Nissan subsidizes the cost of leases in regressive states such as California so as to get credits allowing them to sell ICE vehicles. The off-lease market is flooded so 2 year old cars can be had in the $10-15k range.

An off-lease LEAF is a pretty good value proposition. But it is nothing near as nice as a Tesla Model 3.

Nissan LEAF can not use Tesla Superchargers. For distance travel one must rely on lesser networks including Electrify America which is rightly ridiculed for being built with VW diesel fines. Yet charges $0.21/minute for 75kW or less. LEAF is limited to 50kW so net cost is about $0.25/kWh.

$0.25/kWh and $2.50/gallon is about 32 MPG$ in a LEAF using Electrify America. Not a good value proposition for daily use but about par with gasoline for longer trips. Its just that one has to stop for about 45 minutes every 125 miles.

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
Get the range up to 200 miles with the price down to a reasonable level and I would seriously consider one. It would be nice to have something to go from the house to an already warm vehicle when it's zero out, and I just need to go to the post office. (Or the chicken coop.)
My next truck would then be my last, park it in the garage except when I need to haul something.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

It is amazing how few miles that have been put on the PU and other cars since Oct 15 after I got the Leaf home. I just like it even if it pumped out as much pollution. Bypassing minute lubes and gas stations is a plus for this old man time.

 

[not2old]

As a capitalist, you understand that without shareholders, there would be no capital for public utilities or Health Insurance companies to exist. The shareholders are keeping Tesla alive for now, they could also end up being the biggest losers...they could not do what they do without shareholders.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement???? The funding would come the same way it does for schools.

 

[Oaktree]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement???? The funding would come the same way it does for schools.

Are you proposing state-owned (and taxpayer subsidized) factories, etc? So how'd that work out in the USSR and other communist countries?
No thanks.

 

[3930dave]

Are you proposing state-owned (and taxpayer subsidized) factories, etc? So how'd that work out in the USSR and other communist countries?
No thanks.

Pretty well I'd say, for PRC.

Rgds, D.