An future end to DPF Diesels?

[John_Mc]

Well, maybe there is hope: If I can make my current tractor last long enough, maybe this technology will be in play before I have to buy again, and I won't have to mess with DPF.

Can Diesel Finally Come Clean? article appearing in Scientific American

 

[groundcover]

That sure looks promising !

 

[Industrial Toys]

I'm sure hoping that that DPF era was just an UGLY bump in the road for the Diesel.

 

[Wagtail]

Interesting.

Although I wouldn't put it past the Greenies (and/or the Peoples Democratic Republic of Kalifornia) to complain or throw up huge roadblocks... as they do.

 

[Professor Marvel]

Interesting.

Although I wouldn't put it past the Greenies (and/or the Peoples Democratic Republic of Kalifornia) to complain or throw up huge roadblocks... as they do.

YES...
You need to throw piles of tax dollars at it too to make them happy!!!

 

[shooterdon]

I guess I do not see the big issue with DPFs. But I have only had one regen with mine. 20 minutes every 50 hours does not seem worth getting all worked up about.

I can see someone coming up with ways to disable the DPF process if it has not already been done. If it bothers me, I might look into that once the warranty on my tractor is done.

 

[LouNY]

The DPF are the noticeable part of the new "clean" diesels, the EGR is the other big culprit.
The cleanest burning diesels and most fuel efficient to me were the pre tier 4 common rail units.
With no EGR and no DPF those engines ran clean started very well and lasted.
A mechanical injected diesel runs good and will noticeably smoke under heavy load, and the oil will get dirty looking fast (soot).
The early common rail unless "tuned for max power" ran excellently, didn't smoke near as much, started better and the oil would stay clean for a ling time.
Then the EGR crap started, power was down, starting was not quite as good and the engines soot up the oil even faster then the older mechanical engines did.
With the EGR they then stuck on the DPF to collect the soot that was increased from the EGR and now we burn extra fuel to heat up an exhaust filter to burn soot.
Plus we have DEF that gets injected in small quanities to reduce NOx supposedly which doesn't work quite often in the winter.
Of course winter operation is when the DPF has the hardest time getting up to temperature and uses even more fuel to try and get it to temperature and clean up.

 

[s219]

That is a nice article and I like the idea, but they seem to be dancing around the terminology, mixing in some generic terms like bunsen burner and venturi effect. For over a 100 years, the concept they are describing has been known as an "ejector" in engineering circles. I wonder why that word was never mentioned?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Well, maybe there is hope: If I can make my current tractor last long enough, maybe this technology will be in play before I have to buy again, and I won't have to mess with DPF.

Can Diesel Finally Come Clean? article appearing in Scientific American

That is an interesting article and makes a good case why diesels will be around for a while due to lack of replacement options. It talks about 'dieselgate' but VW response to dieselgate seems to be to totally ditch the ICE.

Volkswagen plans to phase out gas and diesel engines by 226 - UPI.com

Is the diesel tractor going to be replaced?

Gradual switch from diesel to gas and electricity - FutureFarming

FutureFarming states: "Diesel's days in agriculture are numbered."

 

[ovrszd]

The DPF are the noticeable part of the new "clean" diesels, the EGR is the other big culprit.
The cleanest burning diesels and most fuel efficient to me were the pre tier 4 common rail units.
With no EGR and no DPF those engines ran clean started very well and lasted.
A mechanical injected diesel runs good and will noticeably smoke under heavy load, and the oil will get dirty looking fast (soot).
The early common rail unless "tuned for max power" ran excellently, didn't smoke near as much, started better and the oil would stay clean for a ling time.
Then the EGR crap started, power was down, starting was not quite as good and the engines soot up the oil even faster then the older mechanical engines did.
With the EGR they then stuck on the DPF to collect the soot that was increased from the EGR and now we burn extra fuel to heat up an exhaust filter to burn soot.
Plus we have DEF that gets injected in small quanities to reduce NOx supposedly which doesn't work quite often in the winter.
Of course winter operation is when the DPF has the hardest time getting up to temperature and uses even more fuel to try and get it to temperature and clean up.

Endless Circle.

 

[LouNY]

^^^^ Thats an interesting article, however I do believe that they are burying the diesel long before it will happen.
Diesel Electric hybrids were not discussed just barely mentioned and I see those becoming more popular then the other alternatives.

 

[MHarryE]

All the talk about problems would scare me really bad if not for having completed my 6th year with DPF and 3rd with DPF and DEF with only improved performance and fuel economy over their mechanical fuel pump predecessors - and the air is noticeably cleaner, especially for my wife who suffers from asthma and can now work with me. Having worked through the Tier 3 fiasco from the engineering side, really bad but taught us the pitfalls going into Tier 4. The injectors I was sending out to keep the test fleet going - I had no idea they cost so much until somebody here gave a number. I checked our price and saw the number given was highly inflated but the real service price was higher than I expected. So my souvenir shelf f failed Tier 3 injectors would be worth a lot if they hadn’t failed due to a design not capable of the world’s poor fuel quality.

 

[gsganzer]

I guess I do not see the big issue with DPFs. But I have only had one regen with mine. 20 minutes every 50 hours does not seem worth getting all worked up about.

I can see someone coming up with ways to disable the DPF process if it has not already been done. If it bothers me, I might look into that once the warranty on my tractor is done.

The problem with the DPF and selective catalytic reduction (for those that require DEF) is the performance robbing back pressure. If the technology in this article works, you not only get cleaner emissions but restore fuel efficiency too.

 

[RalphVa]

Well, maybe there is hope: If I can make my current tractor last long enough, maybe this technology will be in play before I have to buy again, and I won't have to mess with DPF.

Can Diesel Finally Come Clean? article appearing in Scientific American

Could be what is needed to get the diesel fuel efficiencies back up. The DPF's carbon burn costs probably about 25% of the efficiency improvement over gasoline fuel injection/turbo, etc. because of the extra fuel required to do the carbon burn. Also, the only stink now left in diesel combustion, e.g. only stinks just after a burn off.

Ralph

 

[EddieWalker]

Hope this is the answer. Diesels of today remind me of Cars from the 80' with all those vacuum lines, smog pump and lousy performance.

 

[ovrszd]

I agree Eddie.

 

[John_Mc]

All the talk about problems would scare me really bad if not for having completed my 6th year with DPF and 3rd with DPF and DEF with only improved performance and fuel economy over their mechanical fuel pump predecessors - and the air is noticeably cleaner, especially for my wife who suffers from asthma and can now work with me. Having worked through the Tier 3 fiasco from the engineering side, really bad but taught us the pitfalls going into Tier 4. The injectors I was sending out to keep the test fleet going - I had no idea they cost so much until somebody here gave a number. I checked our price and saw the number given was highly inflated but the real service price was higher than I expected. So my souvenir shelf f failed Tier 3 injectors would be worth a lot if they hadn’t failed due to a design not capable of the world’s poor fuel quality.

I have no problem with pushing for cleaner emissions from diesels (and other engines). In fact, I support it strongly. (My wife drives an all-electric car, and we are set up shut down the charging when the utility is experiencing peak demands, so they can avoid bringing on less efficient secondary generation. About 2/3 of our electricity comes from solar - it was a higher percentage before we got the electric car.

What I have a problem with is the kludge of tacking on systems to clean up dirty combustion and destroying efficiency in the process, if there is a better way to do it. That's what interested me in the technology noted in the article. It cleans up diesel combustion by not burning so dirty in the first place.

 

[Cougsfan]

Diesel engines aren't going away, and something such as mentioned in this article is desperately needed. As mentioned by LouNY and others, the effort to "clean up" diesel emissions has been wrought with foolishness, trading reduced NOX and soot for higher CO2 emissions, plus adding appreciable mechanical complications and chances for something to go wrong. I have always felt DPF's are particularly foolish for tractors. NOX and soot are a particular pollution problem in high traffic areas like cities where it is the major contributor to smog. It is not really that much of a concern in rural areas where most tractors are used. CO2 emissions are a problem everywhere, regardless of where the are created.

When I visited a friend in Holland a couple years back, he explained how the Dutch and several other European governments had a little trick to minimize the localized pollution effects of gas vs diesel engine use. The initial purchase price for a diesel powered vehicle is taxed high, but the fuel is taxed low. On gasoline vehicles, it is the opposite. Purchase price is taxed low and fuel is taxed high. The net result is that for people who drive few miles (city dwellers) it is more affordable to use cars with gas engines that put out less NOX and soot where it really causes problems. However if you drive a lot of miles, it is more considerably more affordable to drive a diesel in the long run, which has lower CO2 emissions, but pollutes with soot and NOX out on the open road where it is less of a problem. The strategy works and is viewed as a measurable success in managing pollution.

For those who have never had problems with DPF's, bully for you. I am certainly not in that group. I have had two failures on my Mercedes diesel motor home and two nearly $1,000 tow jobs due to DPF clogs. I sold that otherwise great motor home because of that re-occurring problem.

 

[ptsg]

I can confirm what Cougsfan said.

And for comparison, here is the prices for diesel and gasoline of the top 3 brands (Repsol, BP and Galp).

Diesel: 1.447 €/Liter or 6.07 $/gal
Gasoline: 1.568 €/Liter or 6.58 $/gal

We also have slightly lower price fuel from other brands. What we call discount pumps but some of them have some questionable fuel.

 

[hks003]

I can confirm what Cougsfan said.

And for comparison, here is the prices for diesel and gasoline of the top 3 brands (Repsol, BP and Galp).

Diesel: 1.447 €/Liter or 6.07 $/gal
Gasoline: 1.568 €/Liter or 6.58 $/gal

We also have slightly lower price fuel from other brands. What we call discount pumps but some of them have some questionable fuel.

As someone who drives 100 miles a day round trip to and from work, my wallet just winced. Gas runs about $2.25/gal around me, and I still put $65-$70 worth of gas in my truck each week. I couldn't imagine paying triple that...