Backhoes and loaded tires

[Notforhire]

I just brought home my BT1000B backhoe and I'm getting ready to install it on my L47.
Looking through the owners manual that came with the backhoe, I discovered this ballast warning.

"While BT1000B backhoe is installed on the tractor, liquid ballast in the rear tires should be removed."

My first thought was that Kubota was worried that the weight of the backhoe would damage the wheel/tire because of the reduced air cushion.

However if that's the case, wouldn't the same condition exist if the backhoe was off and I picked up an equally heavy object with the 3 point hitch?
The backhoe weighs approximately 1,700 lbs.
The 3 point hitch capacity is 3,860 lbs.

The only other mention of not having liquid ballast I could find, was in the loader section, (where they were recommending rear ballast). There was a note that read;

"When mounting a heavy rear implement, liquid in the tires may not be required."

I can understand why I probably don't need liquid ballast with the backhoe mounted.
But I can't understand what the downside is to leaving the tires loaded. :confused2:

Thoughts?

 

[4570Man]

The tires on my M59 are loaded. The weight rides on the ground so I don’t see the problem. I’ve never operated the machine without the fluid but I think it makes a lot of difference in stability.

 

[RickB]

I wouldn’t give it a seconds thought. When you dismount the hoe you still have a ballasted functional tractor.

 

[PA452]

I don't know for sure, but I always assumed it was because when you pick up the back end of the tractor with the stabilizers, they didn't want all that extra weight hanging at the ends of your rear axles.

 

[4570Man]

I don't know for sure, but I always assumed it was because when you pick up the back end of the tractor with the stabilizers, they didn't want all that extra weight hanging at the ends of your rear axles.

It’s a lot less stress on the axels vs driving normally.

 

[Smokeydog]

Congratulations on your new machine! They are a very robust TLBs. The FEL are particularly strong.

My manual says the same. No explanation. Dealers around here put fluid in everything. Be hurting a lot of their customers if they didn’t. No practical way for an owner to remove/replace liquid ballast routinely.

Always had to ballast tires on any tractor on our hillside farm. The used M59 TL came with ballast in the rear tires. Be pretty useless in 3pt mode without ballast. Still have to have a heavy rear implement to counterbalance the FEL. 1200# bush hog bouncing, swinging around further back must put similar stress. From an engineering prospective the weakest link looks to be the tire/ply weight rating. Proper pressure for best performance. Replaced the front with 12ply extra deep lug R4 tires and gallon of bulletproof sealant in each.

Ballasted and added rear wheel extensions to our B26 TLB for stability. Bulletproof sealant in fronts too.

Recently found and installed a BT1200 backhoe. No problem with the outriggers picking up the rear at idle with the front bucket down and weight off the front axle. The extra low weight is welcome. Impressed with the stability off-road abilities and traction. Like an old song, “if I’m wrong I don’t want to be right. “

 

[powerstroke444e]

I foamed all 4 on my b26 tlb and its 12 yrs old with no issues. With out the foam I couldn't guess how many flat tires I would have had. And the 1000+ lbs helps all the time.

 

[mikester]

When you use your backhoe many times the jacks are used with the rear tires off the ground. You now have an extra half ton weight being suspended so your by-design 2-4x factor of safety on components might now be 1.5-3x.

I didnt load my M59 tires and find the backhoe is more than satisfactory as a counterweight for any lift. If I only have a light implement like a blade the rear end gets light when lifting 3,000 pallets of wet sod off the back of a truck.

Personally I dont like leaky rusty rims which is why I didnt load them initially. My M59 with air filled tires is already a ton heavier than the TC55 it replaced and it lifts and pushes 2x more than the loaded TC55 ever could. After 5 years I dont miss having loaded tires.

 

[4570Man]

When you use your backhoe many times the jacks are used with the rear tires off the ground. You now have an extra half ton weight being suspended so your by-design 2-4x factor of safety on components might now be 1.5-3x.

.

When the tires are off the ground being held up by stabilizers you’ve got maybe a ton of tire and fluid hanging on the axle. And it’s just a static load. No bouncing, rolling, or side pressure. When the tire is in the ground you’ve got 3 tons of machine sitting on them shared between both of them.

 

[Notforhire]

I thank you all for your opinions. I think I'll ignore the warning and leave the tires loaded.

In anticipation of hooking up the backhoe I've removed my counterweight and the 3 point hitch components. This greatly reduces my FEL lifting capabilities. Without the loaded tires, I think the FEL would be about useless.
I'll find out today.

Murphy's law went into high gear yesterday.
I went to couple the backhoe up and I found that the coupling pins wouldn't go through the clevis. After an hour or two of trying to align the coupling, I decided to pull the tractor away from the backhoe and disconnect.

With the backhoe sitting all by itself I discovered that the locking pins won't go through their clevises! The holes are misaligned by about 1/4 inch!:shocked:
I wish I checked the alignment while it was still on the pallet, but I never dreamed that it would be necessary. So much for made in USA QC.

I called my salesman and I'm sure Kubota will make it right. It's just kind of a PITA having to repack everything and return it.

Without the 3 PH/ counterweight on my L47 I doubt I'll be able to load it on the trailer. Time to borrow my friends NH.

Thanks again for your opinions.

 

[fatjay]

I think it may be related to the stabalizer arms, they can lift the back of the tractor, but perhaps the cylinders aren't as strong to lift up the rear of the tractor with the weighted rear tires?

 

[Smokeydog]

My goodness what a disappointment! As one who just had a used BT1200 delivered, I’m glad that was one time handling project. Heavy, awkward and a difficult lift. That’s a big oversight of the pins not fitting properly. Both sides? Hope the dealer will help you make it right.

 

[Smokeydog]

Maybe the dealer will load your tires for free and check fitment on the next one? My dealer has very reasonable transportation service. Hope your dealer takes care of you particularly off season.

 

[Notforhire]

I was able to connect the backhoe to my tractor by using a couple of pieces of 1 1/2 iron pipe in place of the pins.
The pipe was just a little bit smaller od so it made up for the misalignment.
I won't dig a hole with this jury rig, but it allowed me to load tractor and backhoe as a unit and not have to put it on a pallet.

Off to to the Kubota dealer I go.
No argument from the staff. Everyone agreed that it was a factory screwup, and the clevis was badly misaligned on both sides.
Since it was going to be a major PITA to fix, they gave me a backhoe off another new L47TLB. The mechanics mounted it on my tractor, and home I went.

 

[moship]

Sounds like you got great service from your dealer!

 

[mikester]

Remember GM and the new hydro formed pickup truck frames getting bent by the car haul truckers reefing on the chains too much?

I would be suspicious that a driver might have super secured that load if both wings appear bent inwards the same way. These components are fabricated in jigs designed to maintain alignment during welding.

 

[Grandad4]

This has been coming up periodically for almost 20 years! When I bought my 4560 backhoe back then, the dealer told me the issue with backhoes and loaded tires had nothing to do with tires, axles, hydraulics, or chassis strength... it was a physics issue with rotational moments of force in a rollover. The ROPS can generally prevent a 180 or 360 deg. rollover with a backhoe OR loaded tires + an implement in back but would not do as well with backhoe + loaded tires. So, according to those guys, it's a corporate CYA thing to advise against this practice. That sort of made sense to me at the time, but it probably hasn't held back many owners from loading their tires! I do know that backhoe was one heavy son of a gun and really planted the back end of the tractor to the ground.

 

[Smokeydog]

Remember GM and the new hydro formed pickup truck frames getting bent by the car haul truckers reefing on the chains too much?

I would be suspicious that a driver might have super secured that load if both wings appear bent inwards the same way. These components are fabricated in jigs designed to maintain alignment during welding.

I thought about that too. I bought a used bt1200 attachment that went from an auction in Canada, to Detroit, to Tennessee not on a shipping pallet. The mounting brackets are substantial and transportation damage was minimal limited to some sheetmetal. However the pins were fully engaged. If chain binding could cause that kind of damage, a portapower should be able to straighten.

Glad the dealer resolved with another new attachment. Has been a difficult experience with the OP. Kind of over shadowed his original question on ballast.

 

[Notforhire]

Remember GM and the new hydro formed pickup truck frames getting bent by the car haul truckers reefing on the chains too much?

I would be suspicious that a driver might have super secured that load if both wings appear bent inwards the same way. These components are fabricated in jigs designed to maintain alignment during welding.

I don't think so.

I picked up the backhoe at the dealer. It was partly disassembled and on a pallet from the factory. There was no reason for a shipper to come anyway near the tractor attachment points in order to secure the load.

I think it may have been overheated and it sprung after coming out of the jig. The way this thing is built, you couldn't bend it if you pushed it out at 10,000 ft.

The bottom line is that it was never checked at the factory for proper alignment.

My dealer has been great. I went there again today to get the correct bucket curl pin (the supplied one made it through QC even though it was 3 inches short and 1/8 inch undersize) They gave me a new pin and retaining bolt, no problem.

I asked my salesman about the loaded tire thing. He said that they won't sell anything with a FEL unless the tires are loaded.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Mine says the same thing but I have no idea why. Even if loaded with the heaviest liquid available, the tires still would weigh less than the weight of the tractor setting on them not to mention the added weight of the backhoe when it is attached. And since the liquid is not exerting any force on the axle when the tire is on the ground, there isn't an issue then either.
No idea why they specify that in the owners manual. I haven't taken off my backhoe since I have owned it and haven't had any need to load the tires. However if I do remove the hoe and need some ballast, I have no reason not to load the tires. If I do they will certainly stay loaded from that point on.