Is it safe to experiment with adding exhaust to a tier 4 diesel?

[strantor]

I'm about to get a PTO generator for my LS XR4140 for whole-home power backup and since the tractor will be parked near (but not too near) the house during this operation I want to see if there are any options to make it quieter. Preferably something that can be bolted on and taken off easily. If it were a gas lawnmower engine I wouldn't have much concern about playing around with the exhaust, starting by adding a car muffler to it or something. But since the tractor does all this sciencey wizardry with the exhaust I'm not sure if it's safe to even look at it with these kind of ideas in mind.

I don't claim to understand how all of it works but I know that during regen the exhaust gets super hot, and with the added restriction I wonder if it would get even hotter, and possibly damage itself. Plus I imagine the turbo would run hotter even during normal non-regen operation. And that's assuming it would work at all, which it might not, since added backpressure might throw off the sensors.

This is a 40hp tractor. No DEF, but it does regen. So, anyone want to weigh in? Is it safe to try adding a car muffler onto the output of the existing muffler? I'm not even sure it would make it quieter; I know that exhaust systems are tuned to application, but I just want to try and see. As long as it doesn't mean risking a $20k investment.

 

[LittleBill21]

its almost never the muffler that is making the noise, people add them and they do nothing on generator's. the mechanical noise of the engine itself is just loud. 2 sheets of insulation backed plywood would prolly make a larger difference simply placed between the tractor and the house

 

[ericm979]

Can you make a belt drive for the generator so you can run the engine at a lower RPM? I assume your LS does not have a two speed PTO with a gear that lets the engine run slower while still running the PTO at 540.

Nearly any car muffler will be made to flow more exhaust than your tractor produces. But a car's engine runs anywhere between idle (6-900 rpm) and redline, around 6k rpm. While most small diesel tractors redline at 3k. So the car muffler may be tuned to suppress noise at a frequency that the tractor can't reach.

 

[4570Man]

Buy 50 foot of electric wire and be done with it. And as already mentioned leaning plywood against the tractor on the house side will make a lot of difference.

 

[ctgoldwing]

Move it further away. The sound level decreases by the square of the distance. ie double the distance, half the noise. triple the distance. 1/9 the noise

 

[strantor]

Well if all you guys want to do is make common sense suggestions instead of addressing my half baked ideas then,... well, I guess I came to the right place.

 

[strantor]

Can you make a belt drive for the generator so you can run the engine at a lower RPM? I assume your LS does not have a two speed PTO with a gear that lets the engine run slower while still running the PTO at 540.

I have looked into it and I would like to do something like that but the tractor needs to run at least a certain RPM (2k?) in order for the regen to do its thing. Also at lower rpm it might not have the HP to run the A/C or electric heat.

 

[strantor]

Buy 50 foot of electric wire and be done with it. And as already mentioned leaning plywood against the tractor on the house side will make a lot of difference.

I already have 50 ft! It's a 50ft section of shore power cable good for 100A. Even at 50ft still loud as heck.

 

[strantor]

I guess I'll need to build a small shed to park the tractor in when it's being a generator

 

[Redlands Okie]

That tractor is not all that loud when your cold and in the dark. But seems to get louder when you have lights and heat? Interesting problem.





As other have said, distance and sound barriers. They make fairly economical materials specifically for sound deadening. The material that work really well can get pricy. Have to do some googling to see what is available in your area. Foam as some have mention helps.

Those 2 x 2 and 2 x 4 ceiling tiles for grid ceiling work really well as for a lower end priced product. 4 x 8 sheets are also available. Easily installed to the interior of a shed. They do need to stay dry though. Often times you can get them for free as buildings are remodeled or under demolition.

 

[strantor]

That tractor is not all that loud when your cold and in the dark. But seems to get louder when you have lights and heat? Interesting problem.

I'm trying to think of my neighbors mostly. I live in an odd place. It's a semi-residential street in the middle of nowhere. It's like they were going to build a subdivision on the outskirts of a growing town, but the town never grew, and they never finished the subdivision. I live at the end of the road on 2.5 acres but I have neighbors right next door. During the recent apocalyptic Texas cold snap, my neighbors were sitting in the cold and dark while I was sitting just in the cold (my generator didn't have enough balls to run the electric heater). I had the generator in the well pump house and they still complained of the noise. Not rudely; not even a solid complaint really, but they brought it up. I can imagine how it must suck to have to listen to a generator running all night, and still be in the dark and cold.

The tractor is even louder than the generator, and it won't fit in the pump house. So next time around It's going to be a double-whammy for them. Twice as loud, and I'll be sitting in warmth with the lights on. Maybe I should just invite them over and get them too drunk to walk home? We could talk about them buying a generator over a bottle of whiskey.

 

[ericm979]

I have looked into it and I would like to do something like that but the tractor needs to run at least a certain RPM (2k?) in order for the regen to do its thing. Also at lower rpm it might not have the HP to run the A/C or electric heat.

You can run it at a lower rpm. It'll just regen more often.

You can do the calculations to see how many HP are needed for a certain generator output, then look at a power curve for your engine. Unless you're powering a hot tub or indoor weed farm (and have an extra large PTO generator) you won't need anywhere close to 40hp. Most generators run at a fraction of their full output most of the time.

If you planned it right your generator frame would have two inputs, one at 1:1 and one that gears it up some for lower engine speed. So you could move the PTO shaft from the slow speed one to the 1:1 input when you need to run your bank of grow lights.

 

[strantor]

You can run it at a lower rpm. It'll just regen more often.

You can do the calculations to see how many HP are needed for a certain generator output, then look at a power curve for your engine. Unless you're powering a hot tub or indoor weed farm (and have an extra large PTO generator) you won't need anywhere close to 40hp. Most generators run at a fraction of their full output most of the time.

If you planned it right your generator frame would have two inputs, one at 1:1 and one that gears it up some for lower engine speed. So you could move the PTO shaft from the slow speed one to the 1:1 input when you need to run your bank of grow lights.

I'm planning for the grow house scenario. After the power came back I measured the amp draw on the house with the heater on, 77A. Septic and well were off, but septic pump draws 15A and well pump draws 12A. There's a very good possibility that both those pumps will be running at the same time (plus the water heater, ??? Amps) if someone is taking a shower. So I'm figuring 120A real-world, maybe not even worst case. That's 28kW (38HP). My 40HP tractor might not even be able to handle it.

But I suppose I could add a high gear for just in case we lose power during 2-week span of temperate weather on either side of summer.

 

[CobyRupert]

Pumps may draw 15 amps and 12 amps, but they probably draw 90 amps and 72 amps (or more) for a moment or two when they start up. How your tractor and generator responds and whether it can ride through this starting inrush depends on what else is running, how close to max generator is at, rotational momentum of gen and engine, engine governor response time, etc...
Generator doesn’t need to be sized for 90 and 72 amps continuously, but sizing for 15 and 12 amps doesn’t consider start currents.

When tractors go into regen, do they automatically up their rpms? They could make a generator go whacky if running at reduced rpms with a pto gear multiplier.

 

[the old grind]

Yoopers have electricity?

 

[strantor]

Pumps may draw 15 amps and 12 amps, but they probably draw 90 amps and 72 amps (or more) for a moment or two when they start up. How your tractor and generator responds and whether it can ride through this starting inrush depends on what else is running, how close to max generator is at, rotational momentum of gen and engine, engine governor response time, etc...
Generator doesn’t need to be sized for 90 and 72 amps continuously, but sizing for 15 and 12 amps doesn’t consider start currents.

When tractors go into regen, do they automatically up their rpms? They could make a generator go whacky if running at reduced rpms with a pto gear multiplier.

I'm not too worried about inrush or startup current. My first few words in this thread ("I'm about to get a PTO generator") were oversimplified to the point of being misleading. I already have the generator head and what I'm about to get is a drive train for it. I worded it that way on purpose because I already have a thread here about the generator head and I didn't (don't) want to rehash that whole thread here, which tends to happen every time I bring it up. The generator head is a 225kW (or 275kW? I keep getting it mixed up) caterpillar unit meant to be powered by a 400HP CAT diesel. It probably has enough inertia to drive a locomotive a few yards down the track after rotary power is removed. Getting it up to speed is the bigger concern.

My tractor increases RPM for regen, if I'm below the minimum rpm for regen. It's been a while since I was in that situation so I don't remember if it does so without permission, but I don't think so. I think it will flash dash lights of disapproval at you until raise the rpm so it can regen. But once you've done that and regen has started, it won't let you bring the rpms back down without canceling the regen with some cheat code combination of button presses, which it harshly scolds you about. The regen rpm is around 450-500 PTO rpm I believe? So if I'm running at 540 or higher (I almost always am, and always will be in generator mode) I don't even notice.

 

[Doc G]

Strantor, I'm curious what PTO gen you're thinking about? We're in much the same situation (thinking about how to survive the next freezepocalypse or summer grid overload). I've concluded there is really no practical way to run the entire house -- I could run one of the two heat pumps and the fridge/freezer plus lights, etc. But realistically I'd have to manually switch off the heat/AC in order to occasionally run the septic or the oven or a water heater. It's a tradeoff between the cost/size of the generator vs the probability of needing it (which I expect will be rare). It's very easy to reach a 80-100 amp total draw summer afternoons, but getting a generator big enough for that? Even if my current tractor or my next tractor could power it... I dunno.

Not sure how to help you quiet things down. One idea: offer to share some power with your neighbors. A long extension cord might keep their lights and fridge on and complaints to a minimum

 

[sea2summit]

Get about 8x 10' t-posts, 6x 10' 2x4's, 10x 6x8 moving blankets, and 30 or so spring clamps.

When you need to run it park the tractor, put in the t-posts about 4' off of it for ventilation/air flow, string the 2x4's across the top, clamp the moving blankets on and done. Depending on the temps you might want to add some fans to keep enough airflow to cool the genny and tractor.

 

[strantor]

Strantor, I'm curious what PTO gen you're thinking about?

I'm rolling my own. It's a project I started a couple of years ago and it got pushed to the back burner. I'm reviving it. I'll be posting more pics to the old build thread soon.

Picked up half a megawatt worth of Caterpillar power, think I'll make a PTO generator

I guess this will be a build thread. Living in hurricane country for the past few years with nothing but a 3,500W harbor freight generator that never works when I need it, I've been wanting a whole-home generator and been keeping my eye out for a used one. They don't come up for sale used; I...

www.tractorbynet.com

Here's a teaser:

I've concluded there is really no practical way to run the entire house

It helps to free yourself of the need to be practical. There is nothing practical about what I'm doing, and I'm comfortable with that.

Not sure how to help you quiet things down. One idea: offer to share some power with your neighbors. A long extension cord might keep their lights and fridge on and complaints to a minimum

Yeah I could do that. I'll put them on a breaker so I don't have to worry about them trying to turn on their HVAC and stalling my tractor.

 

[Doc G]

Picked up half a megawatt worth of Caterpillar power, think I'll make a PTO generator

I guess this will be a build thread. Living in hurricane country for the past few years with nothing but a 3,500W harbor freight generator that never works when I need it, I've been wanting a whole-home generator and been keeping my eye out for a used one. They don't come up for sale used; I...

www.tractorbynet.com

Here's a teaser:View attachment 690379

Great Scott! I'll look forward to seeing the details