Used Value vs Age

[MiserableOldFart]

From what I've read, and I hope it's accurate, most of the early problems with the tier 4 emissions have been fixed, and there isn't a big deal about it any more. I would think some of the earlier machines might have taken a hit in resale value, because there were problems. Having bought a new tractor this year, I hope and pray there aren't major problems ahead.
Cars once had a lot of problems with the anti-pollution stuff, but despite ridiculous claims by people that their '67 Chevy got 50 mpg, it's a non-issue in cars today. I can say without hesitation that my new tractor is utterly devoid of any diesel smell at all, except during the one regen it's gone thru. Moving to a bigger tractor has a learning curve to it, and it's going to be awhile before I can operate it as if it were a body part like the old one. I certainly expect this tractor to outlast me, at the very least, and be a terminal purchase for me at my advanced age..

 

[MiserableOldFart]

"We need to do all we can to slow climate change and cut emissions"

Do the Chinese, Indians, Russians, etc. feel this way too, or if just "we" do it, the problem will be solved?
The others don't give a hoot about what "we" do!

The Chinese are moving towards an electric motive system faster than the USA, where the oil companies are doing their best to prevent it.
Most tractors under 100 hp that use diesel fuel will be obsolete in ten years anyway, when it all goes electric, even in the backward US of A.
I'm just too old to wait around for it.

 

[fried1765]

Stored, captured and held, caught.

What’s your angle?

From your post #20!
" It doesn't store the soot "

 

[Hay Dude]

From your post #20!
" It doesn't store the soot "

Check mate

 

[paulfun9]

I know who I’m talking to!
Sounds like fun, Paul. You buying the plane tickets?

So then tell me my experiance?

Also what makes you think I should pay for your lessons? Buy your own ticket!

I was polite last time because in a bad mood I did jump the gun and word something improperly but I assure you your clue didn’t impress me as much as you think it did.

 

[espacef1fan]

From your post #20!
" It doesn't store the soot "

I could see where you could misunderstand what I meant if you refused to try and understand the post I was replying to and how my words tied into it.

I was simply saying it doesn’t store the soot just to blow it out later without doing something to it.

 

[Hay Dude]

So then tell me my experiance?

Also what makes you think I should pay for your lessons? Buy your own ticket!

I was polite last time because in a bad mood I did jump the gun and word something improperly but I assure you your clue didn’t impress me as much as you think it did.

I think you are VERY confused. Re-read my post. I’m agreeing with you. I’m referring to the person YOU are talking abou! NOT you!

Heres your post (#30)

”This makes me laugh! (THIS is who I’m referring to, not you).
Emissions have cost us fuel mileage since day one.
No direct comparrison for tractors but every car, truck and motorcycle I own with emissions has given less mpg than a similar vehicle before.”


Here’s my post (#32) in response to your post:

“Doesnt it? I’m not 100% sure, but it sounds like the words spoken of a “faculty lounge expert”, with no real world experience. NOT YOU, what/who YOU are referring to!
From the belt driven smog pump of 1972 all the way to today’s DPFs and all the catalytic converters in between, every pollution control device reduces efficiency and increases fuel consumption. That’s just plain fact for the last 50 years.
Now do they reduce emissions? Of course they do and that’s a good thing. However, the word we are focused on is “efficiency“.”

Good grief! Get a grip! I’m agreeing with you.
Re-read #30 & #32 if you still don’t get it.

 

[MHarryE]

Im amazed by people getting better fuel economy on their older vehicles than new ones. My first new pickup was a 1973 F250, good for 9 mpg on Interstate averaging 70 mph. Today my 2015 F150 will carry more, tow more, an when loaded the same way will be 21 mpg averaging the same speed.

Now it’s a different era for me. I changed career late and went back to the farm on which I grew up. But today I can’t afford the downtime we put up with in the past. So my tractors are all Tier 4. I may be wired but I kind of like my computer screen telling me I have low fuel pressure - change your filter - rather than trying to figure out why I seem to be losing power. I kind of like my auto diff lock engaging in a hard pull on a field and automatically disengaging when it senses I’m turning. And also the tractor auto dropping out of 4wd when I forget to press the button when reading to my next farm.

 

[Hay Dude]

Im amazed by people getting better fuel economy on their older vehicles than new ones. My first new pickup was a 1973 F250, good for 9 mpg on Interstate averaging 70 mph. Today my 2015 F150 will carry more, tow more, an when loaded the same way will be 21 mpg averaging the same speed.

Now it’s a different era for me. I changed career late and went back to the farm on which I grew up. But today I can’t afford the downtime we put up with in the past. So my tractors are all Tier 4. I may be wired but I kind of like my computer screen telling me I have low fuel pressure - change your filter - rather than trying to figure out why I seem to be losing power. I kind of like my auto diff lock engaging in a hard pull on a field and automatically disengaging when it senses I’m turning. And also the tractor auto dropping out of 4wd when I forget to press the button when reading to my next farm.

My 22 year old Case-IH has auto lock/unlock diffs and auto 4wd. It also has maintenance reminders. My 21 yr old Heston baler has 50hr lube reminders. Blocked high pressure transmission filter? Yep got that, too.
Ain’t nothing new.
I like my gadgets and conveniences, too. No desire to go back to a Farmall M or an IH “66”, but not crazy about computers controlling everything, making repairs difficult

 

[paulfun9]

I think you are VERY confused. Re-read my post. I’m agreeing with you. I’m referring to the person YOU are talking abou! NOT you!

Heres your post (#30)

”This makes me laugh! (THIS is who I’m referring to, not you).
Emissions have cost us fuel mileage since day one.
No direct comparrison for tractors but every car, truck and motorcycle I own with emissions has given less mpg than a similar vehicle before.”


Here’s my post (#32) in response to your post:

“Doesnt it? I’m not 100% sure, but it sounds like the words spoken of a “faculty lounge expert”, with no real world experience. NOT YOU, what/who YOU are referring to!
From the belt driven smog pump of 1972 all the way to today’s DPFs and all the catalytic converters in between, every pollution control device reduces efficiency and increases fuel consumption. That’s just plain fact for the last 50 years.
Now do they reduce emissions? Of course they do and that’s a good thing. However, the word we are focused on is “efficiency“.”

Good grief! Get a grip! I’m agreeing with you.
Re-read #30 & #32 if you still don’t get it.

Well it appears I again misread a post by you!
Guess In my old age I need to slow down and take a breath before going off half cocked!

 

[rScotty]

The OP's question that started this thread had to do with the value of used vs new machinery. We've covered a lot of good ground, and what stuck with me is that the older machines are repairable by a general home mechanic where the new ones are not. And that thought got me wondering just how important the ability to repair that wil in the future.

Because I confess that I like gadgets and conveniences too. HST with computer controlled attack rate is simply fun. Not very repairable, but it could be.
What bothers me is I'm afraid that as a society we lose much more than we gain when we make repairs difficult.

We lose education, self-reliance, financial independence, and ecologically.
In exchange, we gain more debt, some operating efficiency, and we allow advertising more influence in shaping our opinions.
I may have missed in a few areas, but this move toward non-repairability is not looking like a good trade to me.

I understand why politicians and corporations might band together to make repairs difficult or even impossible. But by doing so I fear they are working for themselves and against the common good. Maybe it is time to change that.
rScotty

 

[Hay Dude]

The OP's question that started this thread had to do with the value of used vs new machinery. We've covered a lot of good ground, and what stuck with me is that the older machines are repairable by a general home mechanic where the new ones are not. And that thought got me wondering just how important the ability to repair that wil in the future.

Because I confess that I like gadgets and conveniences too. HST with computer controlled attack rate is simply fun. Not very repairable, but it could be.
What bothers me is I'm afraid that as a society we lose much more than we gain when we make repairs difficult.

We lose education, self-reliance, financial independence, and ecologically.
For that we gain more debt, some operating efficiency, and we gain in how advertising influence shapes our opinions.
I may have missed in a few areas, but this move toward non-repairability is not looking like a good trade to me.

I understand why politicians and corporations might band together to make repairs difficult or even impossible. But by doing so I fear they are working for themselves and against the common good. Maybe it is time to change that.
rScotty

Furthermore, some companies are quickly discontinuing parts for older machines as soon as allowed. Thats their right, but it ain’t right.

 

[mo1]

Agree somewhat, but those “2014 and up” units you speak of are not quite old enough to start needing pollution control systems repaired or replaced.
Give it about 5 more years and the repair replacement bills start coming in.
I replaced (2) DPF systems on (2) different 2008 Ford trucks with DPFs to the tune of about $2500 each.
That did a real number on the “efficiency“ of my bank account!

The EPA requires the manufacturers warrant the emissions systems for 5 years/3000 hours in this size of engine so I suspect with how DPFs operate, it will be closer to the 3000 hours rather than the 5 years before smaller tractor DPFs start to need to be cleaned/replaced. With the usage that most people put on smaller tractors, 3000+ hours will be quite a while. I also expect the tractor manufacturers expect the DPFs to last at least 3000 hours because if they don't, the high hour per year users will be getting a lot of free DPFs on the makers' dimes and the makers really want to avoid that as in this size, they are about $3k apiece. Also, 2008 was the second year DPFs were required in any usage case so the emissions equipment on your 2008 was a much newer technology than they would have been on a 2014 tractor. I would strongly suspect the tractor engine makers were paying attention to how the on-road engine makers were handling essentially the same emissions equipment for the previous 7 years, and learned from their experience.

I would rather have gotten a not in need of an overhaul pre-2014 unit to avoid the emissions equipment but unfortunately they were not available. So I got what I could get, which was new. It seems that like me, the market as a whole would rather not deal with emissions equipment but it isn't a deal breaker either as prices and demand show. As an aside, I don't mind the ECU controlled engine, that is far from new technology, is arguably at least as robust as a mechanical injection pump that needs rebuilt periodically, and isn't terribly complex if it isn't encrypted (which unfortunately they are, ostensibly due to the maker not wanting to be seen by EPA as making it too easy to circumvent the emissions mandates.)

 

[IndyJay]

The OP's question that started this thread had to do with the value of used vs new machinery. We've covered a lot of good ground, and what stuck with me is that the older machines are repairable by a general home mechanic where the new ones are not. And that thought got me wondering just how important the ability to repair that wil in the future.

Because I confess that I like gadgets and conveniences too. HST with computer controlled attack rate is simply fun. Not very repairable, but it could be.
What bothers me is I'm afraid that as a society we lose much more than we gain when we make repairs difficult.

We lose education, self-reliance, financial independence, and ecologically.
In exchange, we gain more debt, some operating efficiency, and we allow advertising more influence in shaping our opinions.
I may have missed in a few areas, but this move toward non-repairability is not looking like a good trade to me.

I understand why politicians and corporations might band together to make repairs difficult or even impossible. But by doing so I fear they are working for themselves and against the common good. Maybe it is time to change that.
rScotty

Scotty, reminds me of many years ago when I bought a "new" car, my Dad looked under the hood and said, "Look at all of this stuff. You'll never be able to work on it". That car went over 300k miles with very little corrective maintenance. My "old" car was a '73 Chevy Nova. It was really easy over just a few years to replace the alternator (a couple of times), the distributor (3-4 times), water pump ( a couple of times), drum brakes (oh boy). Yeah, they were easier to work on but seemed like there was a lot more time spent doing that. New cars/tractor engines are more expensive to repair but seem to require less frequent repair. They are certainly more reliable (until they suddenly aren't).

Also, noticed that some are conflating improved performance and reliability with the pollution control. The computer controlled injection systems improve performance and reliability of modern engines. Some of the EPA regulated "green" add-ons negate many of these advantages, especially the exorbitant costs of the repair of these devices, mostly only because they have you by the "fuzzies", not because of actual cost. Nobody wants dirty air or water, but nobody likes being scammed by those who exaggerate the effects of emissions in order to fatten their pockets.

 

[check]

The Chinese are moving towards an electric motive system faster than the USA, where the oil companies are doing their best to prevent it.
Most tractors under 100 hp that use diesel fuel will be obsolete in ten years anyway, when it all goes electric, even in the backward US of A.
I'm just too old to wait around for it.

Wow - that is good to hear, because we are in big trouble now - just think about the dying coral reefs all over the world, the 130°F temperatures, the wildfires, etc. etc. etc. I mean, 118°F in the Arctic Circle? Really? It seems that all that ice is going to melt much sooner than we think. And you know what happens then!

 

[AGTtactical]

I know where this conversation will lead so I will be the one to go down the rabbit hole.

Some government regulations are a necessary evel. That said, it always feels like they went too far when it effects usability of something YOU want. Sometimes technology will catch up to the requirements and you end up with a better machine because of it. Look at how reliable cars have become and how well they run compared to the early days of emission controls. Not sure if this will be the case for diesel emissions. Time will tell.

I am about to buy a good used washer and dryer. New washing machines were regulated to a max of 26 gallons of water and it doesn't cover the load. Reviews on new ones are all over the place but quite a few complain of clothes not getting clean. Complaints are such that Home Depot lists all new washers and dryers as NON-RETURNABLE. Apparently you can spring for a commercial unit that escapes the regulation at near double the price of a consumer model. BUT they don't sell them in any of the normal consumer stores.

I want a mid size cab tractor one of these days. I will probably have to pay near new price to get a pre emission model or suck it up and buy a new one with lots of electronics and pauses in use while it regenerates. Not in my budget either way right now so I will cross that road when I get to it. Finding a good pre emission model is becoming more and more impossible. People are not selling them and if they do they fetch a premium price

I know where this conversation will lead so I will be the one to go down the rabbit hole.

Some government regulations are a necessary evel. That said, it always feels like they went too far when it effects usability of something YOU want. Sometimes technology will catch up to the requirements and you end up with a better machine because of it. Look at how reliable cars have become and how well they run compared to the early days of emission controls. Not sure if this will be the case for diesel emissions. Time will tell.

I am about to buy a good used washer and dryer. New washing machines were regulated to a max of 26 gallons of water and it doesn't cover the load. Reviews on new ones are all over the place but quite a few complain of clothes not getting clean. Complaints are such that Home Depot lists all new washers and dryers as NON-RETURNABLE. Apparently you can spring for a commercial unit that escapes the regulation at near double the price of a consumer model. BUT they don't sell them in any of the normal consumer stores.

I want a mid size cab tractor one of these days. I will probably have to pay near new price to get a pre emission model or suck it up and buy a new one with lots of electronics and pauses in use while it regenerates. Not in my budget either way right now so I will cross that road when I get to it. Finding a good pre emission model is becoming more and more impossible. People are not selling them and if they do they fetch a premium price.

Buy a front loading washer and you won't have to worry about the water volume issue. And your clothes will be cleaner, and last longer.

"Pauses in use while it regenerates." The horror!! Its no big deal man. You are wasting more time buying used stuff than you ever will on waiting for emissions. Its not big deal...has never bothered me at all. I don't like all the emissions stuff either, mainly out of principal.

 

[Lab Guy]

Ummmm, no.
Emissions equipment like a DPF actually causes MORE diesel fuel to be consumed, so the efficiency is lower.
Yes clean air is great, but why pick on the little guy? Why make us pay $5,000 extra on a tractor or truck for crap emissions equipment that shortens the life of the vehicle, when there are bigger polluters out there.

It doesn’t store the soot.

It catches the soot and waits for EGTs to get high enough to convert it into less harmful gases .

So how much more energy and petroleum resources does it take to produce these less polluting vehicles? All that has happened with emissions is that one environmental issue has been traded for another one. Something will have to happen to all of that plastic and electronics stuffed into these things. And then the issue of long term repair. How many of these things will have parts available 20 years from now? And if said part can't be found, what happens to that big pile of junk?

How much plastic is created and pollution created to sell all of that ammonia liquid for diesels now? What happens to all of those HDPE/PPE plastic containers? Sure, less particulate soot is a good thing. Getting rid of leaded gas was good. How much of that plastic is recycled? Very little. I look forward to companies using this plastic to make into oil again or some sort of bacteria to break this stuff down.

What has happened at the EPA is that it has been seized by the ideologues who have no science or engineering background. So they are clueless about the problems they are creating in terms of environment and cost to the consumer. I would argue it's actually better for someone to run a car as long as possible from an environmental perspective.

 

[Lab Guy]

I was beyond happy when I bought my well used Case-IH MX-270.
Built in USA, extremely efficient and easy to repair. Reliable and very clean running. American made Cummins 8.3L diesel @ 270 PTO HP.
Built in Wisconsin by American UAW employees at a Case-IH factory.

Sorry to see those days are over, as America declines into debt and kicks all manufacturing off shore, but hey, we have more “efficiency“, right?

View attachment 705453

But hey, 'we saved money!' Who cares that half the population is unemployed and needs government assistance?

 

[joea99]

"We need to do all we can to slow climate change and cut emissions"

Do the Chinese, Indians, Russians, etc. feel this way too, or if just "we" do it, the problem will be solved?
The others don't give a hoot about what "we" do!

Not to argue, but, my experience dealing with regulators in the past, indicated the opposite. They DO care what we do and used our slow or lax implementation of regulations as an excuse to do nothing. "You're not taking it seriously, so why should we?"

 

[AGTtactical]

We need to do all we can to slow climate change and cut emissions

Andy

Another koolaid drinker. Why are you now calling it "climate change" instead of "global warming"? Because your TV told you to? Things not working out as forecast?

Its amazing the level of ignorance out there...the globalists know that their forecasts have been wrong for decades. So now when ever we have a bad freeze, or a bad blizzard, they can blame it on "climate change".

News flash...the temperature over the last 600 million years has been about 10 degrees F warmer on average than today, and life flourished. The earth has only had ice caps about 10% of its history. And even now, the earth is getting greener, and deserts are shrinking. You are being played by globalists that are using CO2 alarmism to transfer wealth from the US to the rest of the world. Its a new form of slavery...