Terrified of tipping - how about an inclinometer?

[Tinhack]

The only thing it would be good for is to give you a number that was good at that particular time and place.

Just like your speedometer. But I still look at mine.

 

[Hay Dude]

Heres a very steep incline I cut (retention basin) and it’s pretty scary, but I found the tractor will slide slightly before it tips.
Its funny how pictures never quite show how steep it is.

 

[DonaldP]

Heres a very steep incline I cut (retention basin) and it’s pretty scary, but I found the tractor will slide slightly before it tips.
Its funny how pictures never quite show how steep it is.

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Really great input here! I do appreciate your doing this as it will help a lot of folks that have question out there.

I have about 60% of that slope in a few spots and it concerns me enough that I back up in the same tracks that I enter when i find myself in that situation.

So I did some homework in the Service manual and found that on my Kubota L3560HSTC (Cab), the rear wheels are out as far as they can possibly go... that's 58.3" center to center of the rear tires.

When I purchased it new the width was the minimum of 47.2".

I did see how narrow that was before picking it up, and asked the dealer if he could widen them. Looks like they took the stance all the way out as far as it could go. I'm perfectly fine with that (being new to tractors). That's about 11" total, or 5.5" on each side. That's more than most spacers will give you and its free (on this model anyway).

I also have less centralized ground pressure with the R4's if the ground is wet or moist and therefore do less damage to areas that would be more if I had kept it more narrower at the rear. But... I still am very respectful of any incline.

Quick story from a beginner:

I had used the Grapple to pick up an 800 to 1200 lb 12ft log from a trailer and was backing up and making a 100% full turn at the same time in reverse - while on a relatively gentle slope.


I was angled about 45 degrees off of center sideways on the hill when this happened. I was moving too fast, I stopped too fast while moving backwards into a depression I didn't see, the load was way to high, no Ballast other than filled tires, and my wheels were turned up the hill as I was backing down the hill, adding to the narrower stance of the front end of the tractor and less resistance to roll.

The downhill right rear tire hit a small indentation in the ground... not a hole.

What is that law of physics? "A body in motion will stay in motion until it is acted upon by an opposite force?"

The momentum of that load up high, held tightly in the grapple, my speed backing up, the 3" deep dip that I didn't know was there (that I was about to sink into), along with my angle on the slight grade. All of that acted together in swift and calculated measure to lift the left side of the tractor both front and rear. But I had no idea...

It was a perfect storm of things NOT to do.

It felt floaty and then this feeling in my head as my equilibrium started to tell me something was terribly awry. I glanced out the left side window only to see the ground starting to drop away, my foot was still on the treadle, I was still moving in reverse.

I had no idea what to do in this 1, maybe 2 seconds that seemed like an eternity - it was like I was stuck on the upside on the teeter totter at the playground with absolutely NOBODY on the opposite down side. One way or another, I was going to drop, that was certain.

I felt a bump as the rear tire began to climb up the opposite side of the shallow depression and only then did I realize I needed to hit the loader valve forward as hard and as fast as I could to drop that load. I slammed the knob forward with my right hand as my left hand flailed around the Cab for something, anything to grab a hold of!

It worked as the log slammed into the ground still in the grapple. I had hit the loader valve forward hard enough that it went into float and instantly dropped. That instant drop, and the rise out of the depression pulled the front end back down followed by the left rear.

After cleaning up myself, I realized something. I had been instantly "edumacated" on a number of things the most important being that weight is not always a positive thing... its very fluid, very dynamic as it's moving and unstable in many many circumstances. It can work against you as much as for you.

Time will tell. I have good respect for things that aren't always under our ability to control, or when we shave too much of a safety factor down either knowingly or unknowingly.

I used to Hang Glide, and I will never forget the first time the seat of that glider actually picked me up and my legs were no longer on the ground. It was at that point that I instantly realized that my movement through space and time just expanded to another level, another dimension of up and down. That dimension was much more fluid than simply bending down, standing up, or jumping. It was a dimension that I either had to come to grips with very quickly or face the consequences.

With Hang Gliding its all about not ever getting close to a situation where you need to take action to prevent something crazy from happening. Preemptive actions are much better than emergency actions because there is usually more time to make them.

I wont ever forget looking out that left side window and seeing the ground drop away from me while my hands were looking for something, anything to hold onto, just as I will not forget the feel of that hang glider seat pulling me up into the sky on that first flight experience where I actually grabbed some real air.

Cheers !!

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[beenthere]

Hopefully you learned to immediately lower the FEL to the ground whenever the rear wheels lift off ground. That is if you failed to have the correct ballast, or lifted the FEL too high, and was planning on making a turn.

 

[DonaldP]

Yes thank you!!

All of the above

I'm very lucky to have been spared...

 

[smiley]

Hay Dude,
This post is just for information and no way meant to minimize your post, the scary moments, and seriousness of working on slopes, but I worked most of my life surveying, setting, checking and sometimes building slopes, ditches, etc. on back roads, mountain roads and major highways.
If your camera was fairly level the slope in your photo is about a 1:3 slope (1 ft of fall in 3 ft) To check that, your photo shows about 6 inches wide on my computer screen, so on a sheet of paper I cut out a triangle 2 inches high on left side 6 inches on bottom which makes a 1 in 3 (18.4 degrees) slope and when set on your photo, comes very close to matching the grass slope and your loader frame. That slope can give you pucker power sometimes but generally won't upset BUT --- if it's wet, rough, high side wheel hits rock, loader to high or low side drops in hole etc. you could get in trouble. Dozers can work much steeper slopes but my general rule has always been, "If the pooper starts to pucker---it's time to pull the plug" --- or head downhill. Be safe not sorry.

Most designs call for the flatter 1 in 4 (from edge of shoulder to ditch) front slopes if possible and you may not believe the following statement but the 1 on 3 slope meets DOT standards as safe for a car leaving the road at 80 mph to not roll over (if not sliding sideways or hitting hole etc.) and carefully correcting to re-enter highway. but it's right out of the ---- NATIONAL COOPERATIVE HIGHWAY RESEARCH PROGRAM 158 REPORT SELECTION OF SAFE ROADSIDE CROSS SECTIONSF

"Front Slope Region Return maneuvers can be accomplished without vehicle rollover on smooth, firm embankments 3: 1 or flatter at speeds to 80 mph and encroachment angles of 15 degrees." ,

To permit recovery, a coefficient of friction of at least 0.6 must be available and embankment surfaces must be relatively uniform. ' Almost no returns can be executed when the coefficient of friction is as low as 0.2 (a more probable value than 0.6). ' Vehicle rollover can be expected for return maneuvers attempted above 60 mph if the embankment is soft or rutted.
here's the link if you want to see the whole thing. http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_158.pdf
I hope you don't mind that I attached your photo and will remove it if you do.
Thanks,
Smiley
Also if anyone want to check a slope, carry a folding rule and just unfold 3 ft then at 90 degrees unfold 1 ft, set it on the slope. If the top is pretty close to level, there's your 1 on 3 slope.

Smiley

 

[JWR]

1 in 3 is a 33% slope. Not terribly steep as tractor stuff goes, but I'd think the "won't rollover" claim by the highway people is WAY OFF. They may have acedemic studies to show that but I think they have poor judgement to believe it. [Cars I mean, not tractors.]

 

[DanMc77]

I had no idea that this topic would become such a hotly debated issue. I put one of these inclinometers on the 4600 and another one on the 2210. I have found that my limit of comfort is at 15 degrees, and seeing the reading is very helpful to me, because sometimes I get nervous even at 10 degrees when the rear tire goes over a rock, and so this helps to calm things down for me.

 

[JWR]

I had no idea that this topic would become such a hotly debated issue. I put one of these inclinometers on the 4600 and another one on the 2210. I have found that my limit of comfort is at 15 degrees, and seeing the reading is very helpful to me, because sometimes I get nervous even at 10 degrees when the rear tire goes over a rock, and so this helps to calm things down for me.

That is unjustifiably timid. I hasten to add that EVERY driver has to establish his own levels of comfort and far be it from me to "tell you what to do." That said, 15 degrees is silly for a limit with the tractors you mention and most/all normal utility and compact tractors. I'm talking WITHOUT the rear wheels out to the max and WITHOUT rear wheel spacers, etc. I used a JD 4700 mechanically the same as your 4600 on rough and hilly ground. No problem going across 45% slopes (approx. 24 degrees) if fairly smooth. Up and down 50% slopes many, many times where cattle paths made the ground very rough, etc. I did have my wheels set out to most of the available adjustment width. If you are as timid as your post suggests, for heavens sake put the wheels out as wide as they will go and relax. Ten degrees is not even a reasonable threshold for concern with the wheels in to the narrowest possible setting on any tractor sold today.
And as has been said somewhere in the 148 prior posts --- looking at some meter is not what you need to be doing if you are in any chance whatsoever of tipping or feeling tippy.

p.s. I do like your inclinometer size, readability and location.

 

[DanMc77]

Unjustifiably timid. Agreed. I pointed that out from the beginning. And yes, 10 degrees is cry-baby territory, even worse than that. But its the sense of the machine rotating to the side that seems to get me. Call it an irrational phobia. The inclinometer was to calibrate the fear-factor. I grew up in WI, running tractors all the time as a kid, but the ground was flat everywhere. I have the rear wheels on the 4600 set narrow so the machine will fit between the fenders on the trailer. I'm going to flip them and will deal with switching them for the next time I haul it somewhere.