Sigarms
Super Member
Vertical ground loop.
Furnace options
- Thread starter Torvy
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jaxs
Elite Member
If you are in or West of Lamar,Delta,Hopkins.Rains or Van Zandt,I might put you on to a builder that can be trusted. If you are acting as your own GC I can only say make sure you know what you are letting yourself in for. Are you going with Barndminom or conventional?
To answer your question about trees. That's not a problem with air to air heat pump but must be factored into desighn of geo. Regardless of type,brand,fuel,SEER or wind direction,the installer is more important than equipment. Choose carfully. Opertunity for suplimental solar heat is wide open. Something simple as windows with correct depth soffit to shade them in Summer add's an amazing amount of heat to living space. Passive solar heated water circulation can handle 50% of hot water and comfort heating.
There is some fine soil in NE Tx if you injoy gardening.
OP
Torvy
Super Member
NE of Van Zandt. We are hiring a GC. We will be working until it is ready, so less time to handle details.
I will have to learn more about the soil. It is sandy loam and it grows trees well. We will likely have a garden. I grew up about where north of Dallas and west of Minneapolis meets. The soil there will grow anything, but the growing season is much different. It may take a year or two to figure out the differences.
@Sigarms. Yes, in my head those were the same. I don't think we will deal with geo. I appreciate your expertise. I love the variable speed on our AC and other than that, we will try to balance up-front cost and efficiency.
I will have to learn more about the soil. It is sandy loam and it grows trees well. We will likely have a garden. I grew up about where north of Dallas and west of Minneapolis meets. The soil there will grow anything, but the growing season is much different. It may take a year or two to figure out the differences.
@Sigarms. Yes, in my head those were the same. I don't think we will deal with geo. I appreciate your expertise. I love the variable speed on our AC and other than that, we will try to balance up-front cost and efficiency.
KennyG
Elite Member
I used to think gas was the ideal option for the kitchen stove. Then we got an induction stovetop. The control of gas with the simplicity of electricity. Wouldn't have anything else now.
OP
Torvy
Super Member
Maybe, but I use the flames to char peppers and similar techniques that don't work on induction. Gas also works when the power is out.
Sigarms
Super Member
I assume you mean the blower motor in the gas furnace.
Keep in mind, you could ask for a variable speed AC, which would mean you would get the mac daddy variable speed compressor in the outdoor unit.
In the good old days, blower motors were simple. PSC (fixed speed), X-13 (multi tap which would allow lower air flow in cooling for better dehumidification, and variable speed that could adjust the airflow continuously and in generally always used with mutli stage compressor in the outdoor unit.
Reason why I mention this is manufacturers I find use decieving techniques by what they call their blower motors now. A lot of manufacturers call their indoor blowers "variable speed", when it's really a fixed speed constant torque motor (X-13).
Today's "new" terms...
Varible speed constant airflow ECM = ("True") Variable speed
Variable speed constant torque ECM = old X-13 (better deumid over fixed speed as it can reduce the CFM's by a certain percentage)
Fixed speeds constant torque ECM = the upgraded old single speed PSC motor that has been discontinued due to government regulations in gas furnaces only (oil furnaces can still use a PSC blower as well as air handlers).
I have absolutely no doubt that customers today think they may have a variable speed blower motor in their indoor blower (gas furnace or air handler) when they really have a "variable speed" constant torque motor because the contractor didn't explain the differences and just used the term "varible speed" blower.
If I were building, ensure you insulate well. Insulating the house to lower the load for cooling and heating is the best investment you can make in your home IMO. If using a GC and you don't have direct contact with some of the subs (such as HVAC and plumbing) be very speciffic on what you want. What ever you do, don't spend good money on a HVAC system and good ductwork only to have a $35 Dico thermostat put on the wall
I just can't believe some houses today with all the upgrades homeowners go with and money spent on to have the absolute cheapest made thermostat put up on the wall.
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kenmac
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He's given you some great info right there !
I had to use the cheap T. stat on my unit. It's the only t.stat (Controller) that would work with my system..
Don't pay any attention to the cheap trane unit. I'll replace it when it goes out. It's only for the grand kids play room upstairs. Only used when they come for a visit.
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Sigarms
Super Member
Do pay attention to the way Kenmac has those outdoor units placed outside his home, that is the CORRECT way to sit your unit/units on the side of your home, with lumber and gravel, IMO, even if the house didn't have any grade to deal with.
When I replaced my one outdoor unit below.
I hate dealing with cement pads just due to the weight, but the existing pad was concrete and reused it (harder and harder to find anymore anyways) but I did "box and stone" it. Between lumber and stone and time, it can add onto a job price, but a good contractor should always give the homeowner the choice between the right way of doing it or the cheap way of doing it (putting bricks, rock or dirt trying to level the pad on grade) or let the homeowner do it themselves to reduce the job cost.
If anything, even if your house sits flat on the land without any grade to deal with, and you don't have any shrubs around the house, a raised "box and stone" set up will help any possible incidents of nailing your outdoor unit with a riding lawnmower, and it's "natural snow legs" to raise the unit higher for snow (bigger issue up north).
It plane and simply looks better as well IMO.
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CH4Ohio
Veteran Member
One more pitch for geothermal . . . If I were building, I'd definitely go with a geothermal unit. If you have room for a septic system you might have room adjacent for a ground loop -- it doesn't take as much room as you might think. Also, as mentioned, you can go vertical with a vertical loop system that has minimal footprint above-grade.
With Geothermal, you have the efficiency of a heat pump coupled with the nearly constant ground temperature used to exchange heat. Whether you go with gas or not, your AC will still be electric. A standard AC condenser unit has to exchange heat with the outside ambient air temperature. A geothermal unit takes advantage of the much lower ground temperature so your heat-sink ambient temperature might be more like 55 - 60 degrees ground temp instead of 80 - 90+ degrees air temp.
So on AC setting, you're electric either way.
Add to that, you get free hot water all summer, as long as you're on the AC cycle. Some of the heat that would be dumped / exchanged into the ground is used to heat your water.
On Heat cycle, you have the same advantage. Heat pumps are very efficient for heating until it actually gets COLD outside. With geothermal your heat pump doesn't experience the very cold ambient air temp and again takes advantage of the nearly constant and much warmer ground temp as a heat-sink. (Or, in this case, as a source to extract heat from.)
I'm with you about gas cooktops. You could still have gas available for grill, fireplace, whatever . . . You could even use gas for hot water when not getting it free as a by-product of your AC system. Natural Gas is obviously better, because it's cheaper than propane. But neither NG or propane helps you at all with Air Conditioning. Since you mention that AC is the most important in your area, perhaps you should think about the best option for an AC system and then fill in the gaps.
Everyone quotes the greater cost of geothermal's initial installation. I believe with the government and utility credits, the payback in an area that's heavy on the AC side would be pretty quick.
One last reason that would lead me to take a hard look at geothermal. The insane energy policies we're seeing lately that have resulted in importing oil again and limiting oil/gas production in the US have already led to higher prices. (I think it's going to get worse, but that's my opinion.) Propane is going to go higher. This is going to impact electricity rates too. All energy will be more expensive. I think geothermal lets you insulate yourself from these energy fads somewhat.
But since you're main cost will be electricity to operate an AC system, regardless of how you heat, geothermal will result in cheaper AC operation with the added benefit of free hot water which eliminates your only real significant NG or Propane summer load.
Good luck with the new place!
With Geothermal, you have the efficiency of a heat pump coupled with the nearly constant ground temperature used to exchange heat. Whether you go with gas or not, your AC will still be electric. A standard AC condenser unit has to exchange heat with the outside ambient air temperature. A geothermal unit takes advantage of the much lower ground temperature so your heat-sink ambient temperature might be more like 55 - 60 degrees ground temp instead of 80 - 90+ degrees air temp.
So on AC setting, you're electric either way.
Add to that, you get free hot water all summer, as long as you're on the AC cycle. Some of the heat that would be dumped / exchanged into the ground is used to heat your water.
On Heat cycle, you have the same advantage. Heat pumps are very efficient for heating until it actually gets COLD outside. With geothermal your heat pump doesn't experience the very cold ambient air temp and again takes advantage of the nearly constant and much warmer ground temp as a heat-sink. (Or, in this case, as a source to extract heat from.)
I'm with you about gas cooktops. You could still have gas available for grill, fireplace, whatever . . . You could even use gas for hot water when not getting it free as a by-product of your AC system. Natural Gas is obviously better, because it's cheaper than propane. But neither NG or propane helps you at all with Air Conditioning. Since you mention that AC is the most important in your area, perhaps you should think about the best option for an AC system and then fill in the gaps.
Everyone quotes the greater cost of geothermal's initial installation. I believe with the government and utility credits, the payback in an area that's heavy on the AC side would be pretty quick.
One last reason that would lead me to take a hard look at geothermal. The insane energy policies we're seeing lately that have resulted in importing oil again and limiting oil/gas production in the US have already led to higher prices. (I think it's going to get worse, but that's my opinion.) Propane is going to go higher. This is going to impact electricity rates too. All energy will be more expensive. I think geothermal lets you insulate yourself from these energy fads somewhat.
But since you're main cost will be electricity to operate an AC system, regardless of how you heat, geothermal will result in cheaper AC operation with the added benefit of free hot water which eliminates your only real significant NG or Propane summer load.
Good luck with the new place!
Last edited:
MoKelly
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