Another confused first timer

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Some outright deception has become the way business is done today.

Yep and that's one of the reasons why I am here on this forum because I want to help educate the newbies so they don't get taken advantage of. One thing I have learned over the past several years in one of my businesses is the most lucrative deals are almost always sucker deals.

In the final price, how much of the responsibility for a purchase falls on the dealer and how much on the buyer? Sales agreements are pretty simple to read. Anyone can calculate interest.

Good question but I would come back and say it's a 100% the buyer's responsibility to ensure they are getting the most bang for the buck. As a consumer you may not be able to control the price but you can control what you choose to buy and who you choose to deal with.

50 years ago it was assumed that it was common sense to go into any business deal with the assumption that each party was going to try to maximize their profit.

That's still true today but negotiating a good deal for yourself takes work, time and practice and few people are willing to really a go at it. I don't know if it was like that 50 years ago or not as I wasn't around.

Customers didn't hate dealers for being that way, or vice versa. But it was understood that both parties had an obligation to protect themselves. The common saying was, "Buyer Beware." Seems like little has changed.

What has changed is the industry as a whole seems to have cut out a lot of the negotiating and has gone to more of a fixed price model based off of rebates. There's one price for the cash offer and another price for financing. Another thing I have found is you have to watch MSRP as some dealers will play a game with that.

 

[Torvy]

All expenses are baked into the price, if you look at the sales in aggregate. I've seen plenty of examples, though, of sellers being willing to take little profit, or in some cases a loss, to close a deal. Usually, that is with an expectation that they will make it up in other ways. (parts, service, future sales, or even Goodwill). If someone gets a good deal from a business, they will be more likely to speak highly of them and encourage others to shop there. Think of it like casinos. The Average person loses a little money every time. A few people make big money. A few others lose their shirt. The trick for the consumer is to be a winner more often than not. Businesses have the same approach. The businesses that get the most complaints from people are those who rigidly stick to prices or policies regardless of the situation.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

All expenses are baked into the price, if you look at the sales in aggregate. I've seen plenty of examples, though, of sellers being willing to take little profit, or in some cases a loss, to close a deal. Usually, that is with an expectation that they will make it up in other ways. (parts, service, future sales, or even Goodwill). If someone gets a good deal from a business, they will be more likely to speak highly of them and encourage others to shop there. Think of it like casinos. The Average person loses a little money every time. A few people make big money. A few others lose their shirt. The trick for the consumer is to be a winner more often than not. Businesses have the same approach. The businesses that get the most complaints from people are those who rigidly stick to prices or policies regardless of the situation.

I've seen plenty of examples, though, of sellers being willing to take little profit, or in some cases a loss, to close a deal. Usually, that is with an expectation that they will make it up in other ways. (parts, service, future sales, or even Goodwill).

That only works with owners and people who have an actual stake in the company. Not with sales people working on a commission.

 

[Torvy]

The owner makes the decisions. If they tolerate bad behavior by sales people, they are complicit. Personally, I am not a fan of commission sales. It makes things more complicated. Ultimately, if the buyer and seller are not in agreement there is no deal.

To be fair, I know of a few situations where even a commissioned salesperson would take a short-term loss for a long-term gain. Those salespeople are generally those who have done it long enough and are good enough to see the long game....that and some compensation is often tied to units sold and/or new business relationships established. It all comes back to ownership/leadership. Set-up a compensation program that reflects you values and hold people accountable.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

The owner makes the decisions. If they tolerate bad behavior by sales people, they are complicit. Personally, I am not a fan of commission sales. It makes things more complicated. Ultimately, if the buyer and seller are not in agreement there is no deal.

To be fair, I know of a few situations where even a commissioned salesperson would take a short-term loss for a long-term gain. Those salespeople are generally those who have done it long enough and are good enough to see the long game....that and some compensation is often tied to units sold and/or new business relationships established. It all comes back to ownership/leadership. Set-up a compensation program that reflects you values and hold people accountable.

Torvy I 100% agree with what you're saying but in my experience with the Ag industry it doesn't operate like that. This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the compact tractor industry being a duopoly. In my particular town there are only four tractor dealerships and only two of them are on the side of town everybody lives and that is of course John Deere and Kubota. So they basically have no competition and when there is no competition they don't work to earn your business because they don't have to.

 

[Torvy]

The only way for that to get better is for people to continue to embrace change and buy from the LS, Branson, Kioti, TYM, etc. It becomes a circular argument when people will not buy an equal or even better tractor for less because of smaller dealer networks...the auto industry was the same until a critical mass of people abandoned bias for value.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

The only way for that to get better is for people to continue to embrace change and buy from the LS, Branson, Kioti, TYM, etc. It becomes a circular argument when people will not buy an equal or even better tractor for less because of smaller dealer networks...the auto industry was the same until a critical mass of people abandoned bias for value.

I will add to that that those manufacturers need to get their act together as well. Having a North American headquarters with no one to answer the phone and no willingness to return emails and phone calls is unacceptable.

 

[Hoodoo]

Enjoying following this thread, great info from all. Could I ask again about info on this specific tractor, please? Not so much on the dealer, but the tractor itself? Is this the type that would suit my needs? With the attachments included, is it a good value?

https://www.shoppok.com/prescott/a,50,203209,2020-KIOTI-CX2510H-TL-25HP-HYSTAT-4X4-Tractor-GEAR-UP-OFFER--249-mo----18490--We-Deliver-to-You--.htm

Thanks again.
I think I kinda got it narrowed down to Kioti/Kubota/LS......

 

[DGZRT]

Enjoying following this thread, great info from all. Could I ask again about info on this specific tractor, please? Not so much on the dealer, but the tractor itself? Is this the type that would suit my needs? With the attachments included, is it a good value?

https://www.shoppok.com/prescott/a,50,203209,2020-KIOTI-CX2510H-TL-25HP-HYSTAT-4X4-Tractor-GEAR-UP-OFFER--249-mo----18490--We-Deliver-to-You--.htm

Thanks again.
I think I kinda got it narrowed down to Kioti/Kubota/LS......

Wow that looks like a nicely equipped tractor with some awesome upgrades . What is Kubota offering ? I can tell you what I would do !

 

[azbinder]

Enjoying following this thread, great info from all. Could I ask again about info on this specific tractor, please? Not so much on the dealer, but the tractor itself? Is this the type that would suit my needs? With the attachments included, is it a good value?

https://www.shoppok.com/prescott/a,50,203209,2020-KIOTI-CX2510H-TL-25HP-HYSTAT-4X4-Tractor-GEAR-UP-OFFER--249-mo----18490--We-Deliver-to-You--.htm

Thanks again.
I think I kinda got it narrowed down to Kioti/Kubota/LS......

I see in the ad that the box scraper is listed as a "Gannon". FYI, Gannon is a brand. As a general rule most any rear box scraper is refered to as a "Gannon", even though it is not. I have a hard time believing that they would be including a Gannon brand scraper as they are usually the highest price units around. I've sold Gannon, Landpride and Woods along with a few others. More than likely, they will be using an "off" brand. Just my observation.

 

[Hoodoo]

Kubota has a similar tractor with only a front bucket for $21k. No canopy/gannon/brush hog

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I see in the ad that the box scraper is listed as a "Gannon". FYI, Gannon is a brand. As a general rule most any rear box scraper is refered to as a "Gannon", even though it is not. I have a hard time believing that they would be including a Gannon brand scraper as they are usually the highest price units around. I've sold Gannon, Landpride and Woods along with a few others. More than likely, they will be using an "off" brand. Just my observation.

It's also a regional thing, I think.

I was born and raised in AZ, and we always called box blades "gannons". I never heard them called anything else until I moved up here.

 

[DGZRT]

Kubota has a similar tractor with only a front bucket for $21k. No canopy/gannon/brush hog

Does the Kubota have the upgraded lights and power inverter? How about the added rear wheel ballast ? Tilt steering? The upgraded air filter? Does it even have the cruise control? You need to make a list and compare.

 

[Hoodoo]

Slowpoke - Yes, everyone calls it a Gannon around here......

DGZRT - I will check, I don't think so. Kubota seems to think they have become Deere.......

 

[JasperFrank]

If you are weighing your decision on Dealer Access, and buying new, my experience has been that dealers are a fickle thing. They come and go and, move around. At least they do in my area of Western, Central Oregon. There is no guarantee the dealer you bought from will be there in 5 years. How ever, there will always be a local, non-brand, tractor repair shop. I'm of the opinion, that a used tractor is a better value. Especially if you can be directly involved with the seller and see how the tractor was used. You can quickly tell if a tractor was "trashed" doing too much work, or if it was, that golden, single task tractor, or a rarely used one at an estate sale. You can determine this by looking at all their other stuff, and if the owner is organized, and figuring out the reason for the sale. When you do find one that meets your needs and price point, do an extra step, and hypothetically, start looking on the availability of normally replacecable parts that a repair shop could have assess to. If you start coming up with "unavailable," then this is the reason it is being sold. You can bet the owner already knows this.

 

[rScotty]

I see in the ad that the box scraper is listed as a "Gannon". FYI, Gannon is a brand. As a general rule most any rear box scraper is refered to as a "Gannon", even though it is not. I have a hard time believing that they would be including a Gannon brand scraper as they are usually the highest price units around. I've sold Gannon, Landpride and Woods along with a few others. More than likely, they will be using an "off" brand. Just my observation.

I've never heard of a box scraper called a "Gannon" unless it was a box scraper made by Gannon - and those are expensive. Maybe calling all scrapers "Gannons" does sometimes happen in other places & other conversations, but not by a dealer and especially not when he is advertising a "special deal".

The advertisement also says:

- Full Independent Four-Wheel Drive (4X4) (not just front wheel assist);
- Unitized FULL STEEL Main-Frame Chassis (not aluminum)
- Live 540 RPM Rear Power Take Off (PTO);

So lets look at those things. See if they are true or what they really mean.

Maybe the Kioti CX2510H does have a fully independent 4x4 and not just front wheel assist. But I wonder if that is really true. If true, it is the only compact tractor on the market to have that feature. All the rest are part time, front wheel assist (no center differential). That includes every other compact tractor I'm aware of.

Steel chassis?? Well that much is probably true, but the implication is that others have an aluminum chassis. And I doubt that. Sure there may be some garden tractors out there with an aluminum engine/transmission/rear end assembly doubling as an integral aluminum frame. But in the real tractor world with highly stressed loaders and 3 pts I've never heard of anything but steel being used for frames. That goes for all compacts and utilities.

"Live PTO"?? Again, probably true but what's not being said is that's the least favored type of PTO, and only one small step better than a transmission driven PTO. You will do much better with a "fully independent PTO". And better yet if the independent PTO has some features like a built in overrunning clutch, brake, and multispeed capability.

That whole advertisement just doesn't feel right to me.
rScotty

 

[Hoodoo]

rScotty - Good points......What specifically should I ask the guy when he returns my call?

 

[rScotty]

rScotty - Good points......What specifically should I ask the guy when he returns my call?

I'd let him do the talking. Frankly the deal sounds pretty good. I was just put off by the exaggerations and hyperbole when I posted above. Why would they say those things if the basic deal is good??

You might tell him that an old mechanic guy you were talking to had those questions (message #177) - or maybe don't bother. We already know the answers & they don't really bother us.

For sure, ask if the dealership offers trailering if warranty service is required (and who pays?) and ask if they have a truck outfitted for mobile mechanical service. A lot of dealers these days have both those services.
From your viewpoint having a service dept. says something about their committment. But the fact is that very few new tractors require any type of in depth warranty work. Most require none. Still, it's nice to have it in writing. I never go to my dealer, but do sometimes call and have his mobile service truck and mechanic come out.

What else? Well, the most important thing I'd ask is what it would take to move from the CX2510H to the CK2610H. From the specs, I believe that would be a sweet upgrade and worth bargaining for.... even if it meant paying more to get. the 2610 has 3 range HST, 50% more lift, more weight, and larger tires...

BTW, if your soil is sandy and not much snow you probably want industrial tires, not lugs. Industrials are R4 tires rather than R1 tires. You may have to add a dollars for that option but worth it and even more so if you have thorns. Now if you have mud instead of sand and gravel....and especially if you have slippery clay-base mud or sloppy snow then R1 is the tire.

Otherwise just let him talk and make you offers.
Good hunting,
rScotty

 

[k0ua]

Some of the low end John Deere's DO have aluminum rear ends instead of cast iron like most CUTS. The Low end JD's are REALLY low end. Corners cut to meet a price point.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I've never heard of a box scraper called a "Gannon" unless it was a box scraper made by Gannon - and those are expensive. Maybe calling all scrapers "Gannons" does sometimes happen in other places & other conversations, but not by a dealer and especially not when he is advertising a "special deal".

The advertisement also says:

- Full Independent Four-Wheel Drive (4X4) (not just front wheel assist);
- Unitized FULL STEEL Main-Frame Chassis (not aluminum)
- Live 540 RPM Rear Power Take Off (PTO);

So lets look at those things. See if they are true or what they really mean.

Maybe the Kioti CX2510H does have a fully independent 4x4 and not just front wheel assist. But I wonder if that is really true. If true, it is the only compact tractor on the market to have that feature. All the rest are part time, front wheel assist (no center differential). That includes every other compact tractor I'm aware of.

Steel chassis?? Well that much is probably true, but the implication is that others have an aluminum chassis. And I doubt that. Sure there may be some garden tractors out there with an aluminum engine/transmission/rear end assembly doubling as an integral aluminum frame. But in the real tractor world with highly stressed loaders and 3 pts I've never heard of anything but steel being used for frames. That goes for all compacts and utilities.

"Live PTO"?? Again, probably true but what's not being said is that's the least favored type of PTO, and only one small step better than a transmission driven PTO. You will do much better with a "fully independent PTO". And better yet if the independent PTO has some features like a built in overrunning clutch, brake, and multispeed capability.

That whole advertisement just doesn't feel right to me.
rScotty

Steel chassis?? Well that much is probably true, but the implication is that others have an aluminum chassis. And I doubt that. Sure there may be some garden tractors out there with an aluminum engine/transmission/rear end assembly doubling as an integral aluminum frame. But in the real tractor world with highly stressed loaders and 3 pts I've never heard of anything but steel being used for frames. That goes for all compacts and utilities.

They're taking a pot shot at Deere's 3E tractors. Those tractors for the most part have aluminum frames to get the weight down. Most have never had issues with them. The few that did were trying to work the tractor beyond it's limits with that type of setup and I guess that's their argument. They're selling maybe a medium duty 25hp compact tractor compared to Deere's light duty 3E series tractors.

"Live PTO"?? Again, probably true but what's not being said is that's the least favored type of PTO, and only one small step better than a transmission driven PTO.

It always makes me laugh now when I see stuff like this. It's really ridiculous that the industry is still selling tractors with this antiquated technology. The tractor industry is the only one of it's kind that builds motorized equipment with outdated, antiquated technology and offers them for sale to the public. This is the center piece of their "game" to push you into another model with modern technology. It's backwards thinking.