90's era kubotas better built? Also parts prices question

[5030]

Like I said earlier, the Achilles Heel on Kubota's (at least the M series that I own is the wimpy clutch brake. It's only 1 set of plates in the hydraulic pto assemble and it's pretty darn easy to to ruin them by running any implement (like a shredder) for instance that has no built in over running clutch. When the pto is off but the implement is freewheeling the tractor pto stub, it's eating up the pto brake. Simple solution is of course to add an over running clutch (ratchet one way clutch) to the pto stub on the tractor. That way, when you disengage the pto at speed, the freewheeling implement pto shaft won't be turning the stub shaft and destroying the pto brake.

I understand from my dealer that Kubota has/had a service bulletin on it at one time but mine are so far out of warranty it don't matter and accessing the pto clutch pack entails splitting the tractor anyway.

Just as easy to add an over running clutch, just be sure the over running clutch you buy is rated for your tractor pto power. TSC sells them and they are on Flea Bay as well. Because my M's have a pretty high pto output power, I had to buy a heavy duty over running coupler but the one I have fits both tractors. The one I have is 6 spline male on one end and 6 spline female on the other. It does increase the stub length about 4" so you might have to shorten the input shaft to the implement accordingly.

Pretty easy to tell if the pto brake is shot. Just grab the pto stub with your hand (with the engine off) and turn it. If the brake is working correctly, the stub shaft will rotate about half a revolution and stop. If the brake is shot, the stub shaft will rotate with no stopping.

The other issue with a worn pto brake is, the stub shaft will continually rotate whether the pto is engaged or not and that is because it's a wet clutch (pto) and there is a certain amount of parasitic drag from the wet plates.

 

[Brambleberry]

Okay, on to the tier4 emissions issue. I brought that up to the dealer and he said that all the problems were with the DEF, not the DPF that the new Kubotas have, and that I shouldn't worry at all about the DPF, as long as you do the regens when the lights go off.

Tell me more, I'm all ears. Is he just bullshitting me to make a sale? What are the issues everyone has with tier4 emissions?

Thanks

 

[Brambleberry]

would agree. if you're considering M series, pre tier 4 MXX40 models would be my choice (& is for me). as far as 90's models, can't say if better built as i've never owned one. but going that far back could work against you as well, unless you find one well maintained w/service log. just scour it before you buy

in terms of the 90's, i'd be looking at a good used M6800 or M9000, hopefully with hyd shuttle rather than shuttle shift. both are among the best of their era.
overall, my advice, given these market conditions, is patience till the right one shows. don't jump at the 1st shiny hood you see. hire your work till you find one... looks like you're doing your homework as we speak. best regards

Just found this one, it's a ways away but. ..

 

[big bubba]

no FEL? wouldn't consider if looking at utility work, i'd pass. patience, you'll find what you're looking for, they're scarce, but people always need cash

 

[5030]

The more complex the emissions systems are the more chance of issues. real simple. DEf is way more complex that SCR because of the added components but, even SCR (DPF to you) can still have issues with the sensors. Simply put, the way it works is, there are sensors in the cannister that 'tell' the ECM when the pressure differential across the catalytic substrate exceeds the value in programmed in the ECM and the ECM initiates a regen that essentially richens the fuel to air mixture and incinerates the soot (particulates) collected in the substrate and turns them to ash, which drops out of the substrate and falls into the bottom of the cannister. Because the converted ash stays in the cannister, at some point (Kubota estimates 2500 regen cycles) it has to be taken apart and cleaned and / or the substrate need to be replaced and it's not a matter of using a shop vac to clean it, it has to be cleaned in a specialized machine that washes the substrate and collects the burned particulates and they have to be disposed of on an approved landfill (low level hazardous waste).

You. as an owner will probably never see 2500 regens but at some point, some owner will and will have to pay for the service. From what I understand, a typical cleaning costs about 400 bucks and if the substrate needs replaced, add another 400 to the cost. Once the ECM determines the cannister has reached it's useful lifetime, the ECM will derate the engine until the cannister is cleaned or the substrate is renewed and then I believe a dealer has to reset the ECM. Not sure on that however.

I do know with big trucks (class 8 diesels prior to urea injection) (DEF), the dealer had to reset the ECM so the engine would come out of derate. Even with urea injection, the SCR cannister has to be cleaned anyway. The outfit I retired from purchased one of the cleaning machines before I retired and the machine was well over 30 grand.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I've owned other brands, e.g., NH, MF, JD, etc. and find parts prices to be comparable with Kubota. Chalk that one up to myth.

I don't see how they could be any different because that's the highest margin part of this whole industry.

 

[Fallon]

The more complex the emissions systems are the more chance of issues. real simple. DEf is way more complex that SCR because of the added components but, even SCR (DPF to you) can still have issues with the sensors. Simply put, the way it works is, there are sensors in the cannister that 'tell' the ECM when the pressure differential across the catalytic substrate exceeds the value in programmed in the ECM and the ECM initiates a regen that essentially richens the fuel to air mixture and incinerates the soot (particulates) collected in the substrate and turns them to ash, which drops out of the substrate and falls into the bottom of the cannister. Because the converted ash stays in the cannister, at some point (Kubota estimates 2500 regen cycles) it has to be taken apart and cleaned and / or the substrate need to be replaced and it's not a matter of using a shop vac to clean it, it has to be cleaned in a specialized machine that washes the substrate and collects the burned particulates and they have to be disposed of on an approved landfill (low level hazardous waste).

You. as an owner will probably never see 2500 regens but at some point, some owner will and will have to pay for the service. From what I understand, a typical cleaning costs about 400 bucks and if the substrate needs replaced, add another 400 to the cost. Once the ECM determines the cannister has reached it's useful lifetime, the ECM will derate the engine until the cannister is cleaned or the substrate is renewed and then I believe a dealer has to reset the ECM. Not sure on that however.

I do know with big trucks (class 8 diesels prior to urea injection) (DEF), the dealer had to reset the ECM so the engine would come out of derate. Even with urea injection, the SCR cannister has to be cleaned anyway. The outfit I retired from purchased one of the cleaning machines before I retired and the machine was well over 30 grand.

Good summary.

DPF Particulate Filter - collects black soot & particulate matter
DEF Exhaust Fluid - sprays urea into the exhaust to decompose NOx (various oxides of nitrogen)

2 separate pollutants being targeted. NOx is a or the major component of smog. Soot is another smog component & we have generally figured out breathing in dust or any particulates sucks.

The higher the combustion tempature the more NOx created. Unfortunately the higher the combustion temp, often the more power & efficiency in the diesel engine.

More complex expensive failure prone emissions systems suck. But breathing crap that leads to shorter less healthy lives also sucks. Society in general seems to have picked the first one as the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[Brambleberry]

Thanks everyone for your input. This thread helped me to choose a really nice, well maintained '97 L4850 Everclutch, FEL, with under 2000 hrs on it.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks everyone for your input. This thread helped me to choose a really nice, well maintained '97 L4850 Everclutch, FEL, with under 2000 hrs on it.

Congratulations! That one really sounds like a winner.
Next you'll be telling us it was owned by a retired mechanic who stored it inside and only took it out on sunny days....

If it were mine I'd want to find an OEM parts and workshop manual set, add an over-running clutch to protect the dry plate PTO, and then look around for some sort of canopy. The best canopy's are insulated and are 4 post type. The front posts make it easy to get on & off.

But if you do none of the above, it won't make a bit of difference because so far it sounds like you found a good one. The loaders on those old LXX50 series were awsome.

The "ever-clutch" was one of those better ideas that (IMHO) got dropped because of the expense of making it. Same goes for 5 cylinder engines.
A good write-up on here to help understand more about that unique clutch. Sounds very good.

Ever Clutch Follow up

This is a follow up to my thread about a week ago regarding a dragging (failing to disengage) Ever Clutch on my Kubota L4850. BTW - thanks for all your help. I have since spoken with a number of dealerships/parts places, scoured the internet for information, and spent days studying the service...

www.tractorbynet.com

What do you think about that 5 cylinder engine? Is it as smooth as they are supposed to be?

rScotty

 

[Brambleberry]

Congratulations! That one really sounds like a winner.
Next you'll be telling us it was owned by a retired mechanic who stored it inside and only took it out on sunny days....

If it were mine I'd want to find an OEM parts and workshop manual set, add an over-running clutch to protect the dry plate PTO, and then look around for some sort of canopy. The best canopy's are insulated and are 4 post type. The front posts make it easy to get on & off.

But if you do none of the above, it won't make a bit of difference because so far it sounds like you found a good one. The loaders on those old LXX50 series were awsome.

The "ever-clutch" was one of those better ideas that (IMHO) got dropped because of the expense of making it. Same goes for 5 cylinder engines.
A good write-up on here to help understand more about that unique clutch. Sounds very good.

Ever Clutch Follow up

This is a follow up to my thread about a week ago regarding a dragging (failing to disengage) Ever Clutch on my Kubota L4850. BTW - thanks for all your help. I have since spoken with a number of dealerships/parts places, scoured the internet for information, and spent days studying the service...

www.tractorbynet.com

What do you think about that 5 cylinder engine? Is it as smooth as they are supposed to be?

rScotty

I'll try to post a picture, but haven't tried that yet on this site .

It has an OEM canopy that's in pristine shape, but is not a 4 poster.

Came with the original operators manual, but I need to track down a service manual now. Also came with the service records for the life of the tractor!

I wish I could tell you more about the 5cyl engine but every diesel I've owned has had a different # of cylinders! It does sound better than all my other ones. Zero smoke even when started cold.

And as

per the owner it was always kept inside when not in use.