Just numbers, with maths

[sea2summit]

I was vaccinated in Jan and Feb with Moderna, I got covid in June and was sick for 13 days. Not terrible, but wasn't any fun either.

Friend of mine didn't want to get vaccinated, but finally did with Johnson & Johnson much later got covid and was very sick for 30 days.

He probably would have died without the shot.

What's your basis for that assumption? Maybe he would have been fine. I got J&J and got COVID about 45 days later, I was down very hard for six days and took weeks to get back to full physical capacity (I like to think I'm in above average health for my age). Four of five other people in my house got symptoms for one day, tested each the second day and they came back negative.

I'm not saying it did or didn't save your friend but there are many other factors.

 

[LD1]

We should start a new thread without comment of...

How many people do you know are vaccinated and still got COVID?

The propaganda is that if you get the vax, and still get covid that it wont be as bad.

I honestly dont know any way they can quantify this statement. Because they keep telling us it effects everyone differently.

I know people who have gotten it and it and the ONLY symptoms were lack of taste and smell. No body aches, no fever, no issues breathing, and NO VAX. I also know people who have been vax'd and got it real bad.

I am becoming more and more skeptical that the vax doesnt do a darn thing seeing more and more people that are "fully vax'd" get covid. Some severe, some not. I think the "you wont get it as bad" is just political speak to try and justify it so people will get it. As are the isolation/quarantine requirements. They are in place to encourage you to get the vax....even though they havent proven it effective IMO.

 

[riptides]

The propaganda is that if you get the vax, and still get covid that it wont be as bad.

I honestly dont know any way they can quantify this statement. Because they keep telling us it effects everyone differently.

I know people who have gotten it and it and the ONLY symptoms were lack of taste and smell. No body aches, no fever, no issues breathing, and NO VAX. I also know people who have been vax'd and got it real bad.

I am becoming more and more skeptical that the vax doesnt do a darn thing seeing more and more people that are "fully vax'd" get covid. Some severe, some not. I think the "you wont get it as bad" is just political speak to try and justify it so people will get it. As are the isolation/quarantine requirements. They are in place to encourage you to get the vax....even though they havent proven it effective IMO.

Look to the third world countries, or those areas where vaccines are not nearly as available and see if you can justify your skepticism.

 

[sea2summit]

Look to the third world countries, or those areas where vaccines are not nearly as available and see if you can justify your skepticism.

You might want to do you're own research before you show your necked hind end with a statement like that.

Assuming this is accurate:

Access Restricted

www.telegraph.co.uk

According to WHO per 100k:
United States, 236 deaths, 14,798 cases (for comparison as a "highly" vaccinated nation)
Dem Republic of Congo, 2 deaths, 16 cases
Chad, 1+ deaths, 35 cases
Burkina Faso, 2 deaths, 78 cases
Benin, 2 deaths, 205 cases

COVID-19 cases | WHO COVID-19 dashboard

The latest data for coronavirus (COVID-19) cases from the WHO COVID-19 dashboard.

covid19.who.int

 

[LD1]

Look to the third world countries, or those areas where vaccines are not nearly as available and see if you can justify your skepticism.

I dont care about the stats in 3rd world countries. I care about whats going on right here in my neck of the woods.

3rd world countries generally arent as healthy and sanitary. so its not an accurate comparison.

My skepticism is justified with what I see whit my own two eyes. And the dozens of people I know who have or have had covid, both vax'd and not. I will form my own opinion, as we all should.

This big push for everyone to get the vax was so isolation and quarantine restrictions could be lifted, and people could get back to work. It was great in theory.....until people that were vax'd were still getting, carrying, and transmitting the disease just as if they were unvax'd. So it was a big backfire. The vax that so many got because they though it would either protect them....or not make them have to miss work and loose a paycheck has let them down.

I have had several people tell me they got the vax so they wouldnt have to miss work. and now they are sitting at home infected with covid and cannot return til they have a negative test result.

 

[the old grind]

Nowhere in any of these threads or statistics do I see a control sample of people in the same state of health with or without a vax. Mere numbers or statistics won't affect the observer in any way but acknowledgement and conclusion. Discussing them becomes a room full of opinions & not much more.

No maker has made claims of long term immunity or relief from symptoms. Catching covid isn't a matter of vax or not and IMO is as much a matter of exposure as prevention. We don't buy car insurance because we expect to crash before trading it in. Who doubts that people vaxed or not are at higher risk among the unvaccinated/unmasked?

Using numbers to justify a platform or stance suggests emotion. Those from other countries won't mean as much as those from one's locale. Contagion knows few boundaries. That the media is widely considered unreliable doesn't affect medical outcomes and could still mean that covid is a hoax or that JFK Jr and Elvis are still alive.

Nobody will prevent infection in to others by talking covid to death. I'll go so far as to say it cannot be contagious over the internet but that fear and doubt can. I'm reminded of someone who reads a book and doesn't understand it then pans on the author for that reason. It's not what we have, it's what we do with it. YMMV

 

[k0ua]

We should start a new thread without comment of...

How many people do you know are vaccinated and still got COVID?

Three. Daughter is still trying to recover. She is an RN and of course worked around Covid patients all the time.

 

[k0ua]

I think one thing that makes us angry is the BIG lie that if you get vaxed if will prevent disease. Early on the "officials" acted as though if you got vaxed you were done. THEN the biggest lie of all was that "breakthrough" infections were "rare" and an anomaly. But there were more and more "breakthroughs". So many that the lie just would not stand up any more. One thing the experts do is lie, and continue to lie. It is at the point now, that I am not sure being vaxed has ANY benefits. So many people I know have been vaxed (as am I) and come down with bad cases of Covid.

Probably the best course of action is to get Covid as soon as you can, and hope you survive and can build natural immunity. Natural immunity appears to be stronger and longer lasting than any immunity we got from being vaxed. I had Covid in mid 2020 and before any vaccine was available. I had a mild case that lasted only a few days. But my wife was not so lucky. She got hit hard with long lasting symptoms. I think the sooner we all get on with our lives (or our deaths) the better off society will be. Covid will manage itself, and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it except continue to develop effective treatments for it, and perhaps to continue to search for a vaccine if possible that will prevent disease.

 

[Snobdds]

Probably the best course of action is to get Covid as soon as you can, and hope you survive and can build natural immunity.

The survivors of:

The black plague
The Spanish flu...
etc..

All agree.

 

[ning]

Last 4 month stats from Scotland. ****** stats are similiar.

View attachment 724317

"The latest Public Health data shows that in the past four months the fully vaccinated population have accounted for 7 in every 10 Covid-19 hospitalisations, as well as 6 in every 10 cases, and 9 in every 10 deaths.


So today we’re starting the ‘Let’s all chip in to buy Dr Hilary a calculator for Christmas’ campaign, because on the 6th December, he stated on national television that 90% of the people currently in hospital with Covid-19 are unvaccinated. Proving he is either stupid, or just a liar. "

source: the daily expose UK

MSN

This can be very confusing and it makes one think and hope that someone will sort this all out, the sooner the better.

Where is this headed?

"Mass Formation Pychosis".

Or read here.

MASS FORMATION PSYCHOSIS

or... mass hypnosis- the madness of crowds

rwmalonemd.substack.com

[caveat: I'm looking only at this post; I haven't checked and tallied their local hospitalization records nor have I watched the video]
Most likely the graph refers to *new* hospitalizations.
Non-covid hospital stays are typically relatively brief, while covid patients may be in the hospital for multiple weeks (I know of someone who lasted 6 weeks in the hospital), so at that point, the number of people in the hospital could easily include patients who were hospitalized four weeks previous, plus some from three weeks previous, etc.

 

[GeneV]

Look to the third world countries, or those areas where vaccines are not nearly as available and see if you can justify your skepticism.

Why limit countries, let's go with continents. Start with Africa, how are they doing overall with covid?

 

[rjpotts]

Okay...that really tells us nothing at all. This is exactly why statistics absent of actual math is totally stupid. If there are only 6 ICU beds occupied by COVID patients and five are non-vaxinated but there's 100 ICU beds and only 15 others are occupied why do I care?

The data states that 70% of Iowans are fully vaccinated and that 84% of all covid patients in the ICU are not vaccinated.

If the vaccine were not effective then the ratio of vaxed/nonvaxed ICU patients would mirror the population resulting in 70% ICU patients being vaxed and 30% nonvaxed..... 84% > 30%

There, I've done the math and it remains clear that the vaccine reduces the rate of severe illness.

 

[GeneV]

What I'm concerned about is that these vaccines might be compromising the immune system, I'm starting to read a bit of that here and there.

 

[CobyRupert]

What I'm concerned about is that these vaccines might be compromising the immune system, I'm starting to read a bit of that here and there.

Where are you reading that?
IMHO, more people should trade their concern for the ability to discern.

 

[LD1]

I think one thing that makes us angry is the BIG lie that if you get vaxed if will prevent disease. Early on the "officials" acted as though if you got vaxed you were done. THEN the biggest lie of all was that "breakthrough" infections were "rare" and an anomaly. But there were more and more "breakthroughs". So many that the lie just would not stand up any more. One thing the experts do is lie, and continue to lie. It is at the point now, that I am not sure being vaxed has ANY benefits. So many people I know have been vaxed (as am I) and come down with bad cases of Covid.

Probably the best course of action is to get Covid as soon as you can, and hope you survive and can build natural immunity. Natural immunity appears to be stronger and longer lasting than any immunity we got from being vaxed. I had Covid in mid 2020 and before any vaccine was available. I had a mild case that lasted only a few days. But my wife was not so lucky. She got hit hard with long lasting symptoms. I think the sooner we all get on with our lives (or our deaths) the better off society will be. Covid will manage itself, and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it except continue to develop effective treatments for it, and perhaps to continue to search for a vaccine if possible that will prevent disease.

Pretty much nail on the head for me on exactly how I feel, with the exception I am not vaxed. And as of yet to see any reason to get the vaccine.

Its proven that they were wrong and it isnt effective. Their ONLY rebuttal is that "you wont get it as bad". Well....I dont buy that either.

I have believed from the beginning that shutting the country down in attempt to "slow" the spread was the wrong move and that it was just prolonging the inevitable. It NEEDS to run its course. Sure, we succeeded in slowing the spread.....we gave it time to mutate and now we have variants. What did we gain?

 

[sea2summit]

The data states that 70% of Iowans are fully vaccinated and that 84% of all covid patients in the ICU are not vaccinated.

If the vaccine were not effective then the ratio of vaxed/nonvaxed ICU patients would mirror the population resulting in 70% ICU patients being vaxed and 30% nonvaxed..... 84% > 30%

There, I've done the math and it remains clear that the vaccine reduces the rate of severe illness.

% of what? You still haven't given any data, you're just throwing opinions disguised as statistics.

 

[masscity]

Opinions and propaganda don't mean anything. Natural Selection will take care of business.

 

[GeneV]

Where are you reading that?
IMHO, more people should trade their concern for the ability to discern.

I'm not saying anything groundbreaking here, Coby. Here's an article from 2011, not about covid but just as relevant: Vaccination Alters the Balance between Protective Immunity, Exhaustion, Escape, and Death in Chronic Infections

 

[3Ts]

I think one thing that makes us angry is the BIG lie that if you get vaxed if will prevent disease. Early on the "officials" acted as though if you got vaxed you were done. THEN the biggest lie of all was that "breakthrough" infections were "rare" and an anomaly. But there were more and more "breakthroughs". So many that the lie just would not stand up any more. One thing the experts do is lie, and continue to lie. It is at the point now, that I am not sure being vaxed has ANY benefits. So many people I know have been vaxed (as am I) and come down with bad cases of Covid.

Probably the best course of action is to get Covid as soon as you can, and hope you survive and can build natural immunity. Natural immunity appears to be stronger and longer lasting than any immunity we got from being vaxed. I had Covid in mid 2020 and before any vaccine was available. I had a mild case that lasted only a few days. But my wife was not so lucky. She got hit hard with long lasting symptoms. I think the sooner we all get on with our lives (or our deaths) the better off society will be. Covid will manage itself, and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it except continue to develop effective treatments for it, and perhaps to continue to search for a vaccine if possible that will prevent disease.

The word "lie" may not be quite the correct word here, but maybe it is. Lie implies the intent to mislead. I don't think they know anymore than anyone who is keeping up on the information available, so maybe "guess" or "postulate" or ??? The problem I have with this is that they portray themselves as knowing the answer and what they tell us turns out to be wrong so they don't know! I think the general public can make appropriate decisions if they are given the information and let them come to their own conclusions.

When someone tells me they're an expert it immediately sends up a red flag. I worked for a company once that was trying to get into a new product line. They managed to get an opportunity to bid on a job and went to present it to the customer. I got selected to be the expert on "xyz" and spent an hour reading up on it before we had to do the presentation so I knew more about it than anyone in our company, but far from being an "expert". Turns out I did know more than our customer, but that's not saying much and I still don't think that qualifies me as an "expert". (We did not get the contract.)

 

[CobyRupert]

% of what? You still haven't given any data, you're just throwing opinions disguised as statistics.

He gave the % of Iowans vaccinated (conversely one can figure out % not vaccinated).
He gave the % of unvaccinated in ICU with covid (conversely one can figure out % in ICU vaccinated).

I don’t see where he gave an opinion.
He only stated the simple logic that if the vaccinated wasn’t effective, the percentages of vaccinated/unvaccinated in the ICU’s would be the same as the percentages of vaccinated/unvaccinated Iowans. They are not.
The numbers show that unvaccinated are more likely to be in ICU.

It’s a stretch, but I suppose one could try to argue that the vaccination is ineffective, but there’s something else about people who refuse the vaccine that makes them 3 times more likely to end up in the ICU.
Perhaps the type of person who is unvaccinated is just 3 times more unhealthy because they eat a poor diet, exercise less, have higher rates of obesity, diabetes and heart conditions?
Spitballing here, but perhaps their reaction to covid is more tied to their obesity and health than the vaccination?
If we did a study that says the unvaccinated are more likely to be unhealthy fat Americans and that’s why they end up in the ICU when they get covid (and not because they didn’t get the shot), then I’d believe the shot was ineffective.
I don’t think that data exists.
Meanwhile, the data shows who ends up in the ICU is related to the shot.