FEL Hydraulics Just Died

[mmranch]

Just a bit earlier this morning I ripped apart some large snow mounds on my driveway with my backhoe (mounds about 10' high). Then turned around and bulldozed the snow chunks over the edge into the ravine using my bucket with tooth bar. I was about done bulldozing this section over the edge and about to turn around and backhoe some more. As I started to back away from the last push... my FEL hydraulics totally died.

No lift-no curl. In testing the controls, the bucket tilted down a bit and the tooth bar touched the ground. No going forward. I reversed all the way back to the shop with the teeth dragging. I am currently parked outside but will back into the stall.

I have found no hydraulic leaks that I can see. All the hydraulic FEL hoses are connected to the valve and tight. The 2 control cables are going into the valve and nothing looks loose or out of place. The control stick appears normal with nothing obviously loose (I haven't gotten inside the control stick area yet).


I've never had this happen before. Any ideas on if the valve just died? Hopefully I'll find disconnected cables or something.

Thanks for any ideas!

 

[dirttoys]

this is awfully generic as I don't know your machine........

You partial disconnected something, or partial closed a valve somewhere.

check fluid level, does bh have "power"?
do the hoses surge when you lift/lower, curl?
is the 3ph trying to over lift?

best,

ed

 

[mmranch]

Thanks for the ideas!

After more testing... it appears the hydraulic pump may have died.

The backhoe hydraulics are also dead.

Thanks again!

 

[dirttoys]

Thanks for the ideas!

After more testing... it appears the hydraulic pump may have died.

The backhoe hydraulics are also dead.

Thanks again!

Yea sure, don't run it any more than you have to until you sort it out. Pumps do die, but, make sure you have good fluid and filters and screens are clear.

best of luck,

ed

 

[ericm979]

Check that a valve is not stuck open or quick connect unseated. That will "dead head" the system causing flow to go through a relief valve. Nothing hydraulic will work. There is usually a high pitched squealing sound but it can be faint and missed due to engine noise.

It seems unlikely that the hydraulic pump would fail suddenly and completely.

 

[River Valley Landscaping]

Is this tractor geared or hst driven?

 

[mmranch]

Thanks for the ideas.

This tractor is geared and seems to be driving just fine.

There are only 6 hydraulic hose connections... 4 at the FEL valve and 2 at a rear remote for the backhoe. There is a lever in the cab which either enables the 3-point lift or the backhoe remotes. I have disconnected and reconnected all the hose connections with no joy.

The FEL has no hydraulic action. The 3-point lift has no hydraulic action. The backhoe has no hydraulic action.

There is no detectable sound of squealing with a valve bypassing, but there naturally is engine noise (and possibly noise at the hydraulic pump).

The hydraulic oil & filter was changed a couple of months ago so I doubt it is low but I will check it.

Thanks again.

 

[ovrszd]

Hoping for some simple solution.

 

[D2Cat]

I'd suggest disconnecting and re-connecting all the hydraulic quick connects. Probably have one that is not seated.

 

[Diggin It]

I'd suggest disconnecting and re-connecting all the hydraulic quick connects. Probably have one that is not seated.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I have disconnected and reconnected all the hose connections with no joy.

Just a bit earlier this morning I ripped apart some large snow mounds on my driveway with my backhoe (mounds about 10' high). Then turned around and bulldozed the snow chunks over the edge into the ravine using my bucket with tooth bar. I was about done bulldozing this section over the edge and about to turn around and backhoe some more. As I started to back away from the last push... my FEL hydraulics totally died.

...............
I have found no hydraulic leaks that I can see. All the hydraulic FEL hoses are connected to the valve and tight. The 2 control cables are going into the valve and nothing looks loose or out of place. The control stick appears normal with nothing obviously loose (I haven't gotten inside the control stick area yet).

The FEL has no hydraulic action. The 3-point lift has no hydraulic action. The backhoe has no hydraulic action.

Could you have snagged and bent or crimped a hardline underneath somewhere? Enough to block flow, but not cause a leak?

Is there some kind of electrical connection to the pump, or an actuator/solenoid that may have pulled loose?

 

[grsthegreat]

do you have a detent rear hydraulic fitting besides the pones hooked up. if it locks into detent without an implement hooked up it will stop all flow (deadhead). i loop hoses on all unused ports.

 

[mike0000]

Hopefully you find a simple solution.
My story on loosing hydraulics on my Branson ended up being the Hydraulic pump drive gear. Gear had the inner splines destroyed, so it was spinning but not driving the hydraulic pump. I never figured out why it happened.
May be worth testing to see if your getting any pressure at the pump discharge.

Mike

 

[River Valley Landscaping]

Hopefully you find a simple solution.
My story on loosing hydraulics on my Branson ended up being the Hydraulic pump drive gear. Gear had the inner splines destroyed, so it was spinning but not driving the hydraulic pump. I never figured out why it happened.
May be worth testing to see if your getting any pressure at the pump discharge.

Mike

I was also thinking start at the pump and make sure it is building pressure as I had recently had the splined shaft on my hydro motor strip out and just left spinning in the receiving socket.

 

[LD1]

How is the hydro pump driven on that model? Make sure whatever drives it is actually spinning the pump.

Does the tractor have remotes?

Is power steering a separate pump or the same pump with a flow divider? Does the power steering work?

 

[Fxfymn413]

Try tapping the relief valve with a hammer. If you have one, or can borrow one, put a pressure gauge on one of the hydraulic quick connects just to be sure there is no pressure; disconnect all of the quick connects and check the pressure on one of the disconnects.

The hydraulic filter should have a magnet on it. Check it for any metal in the system. If no magnet carefully remove the filter to keep as much oil in it as possible and then drain the oil through as fine a mesh screen as you can find to look for metal. If you suspect metal carefully cut the filter open to look for metal in the paper mesh. Obviously if you find metal your diagnosis of a failed pump is most likely correct, but I would pull the relief valve first just to make sure it is not stuck open or has a broken spring.

 

[mmranch]

Thanks for all the ideas! I really appreciate it.

Current status is... the tractor is backed into the shop with all 4 wheels up on railroad ties so the tractor is elevated. The backhoe and FEL are on the tractor because they can't be removed without working hydraulics. This means the backhoe is in the way and accessing the rear or underneath is difficult and that's why the tractor is up on railroad ties to make it easier to get underneath. The bucket & toothbar is still on but the FEL is NOT fully lowered to the ground. If I lower the FEL all the way to the ground then the FEL arms will be in the way of accessing the location of the hydraulic pump on the right side of the engine.

When I disconnected and reconnected the FEL hoses at the FEL valve, I could only do 3 of them. The 4th wouldn't disconnect (probably because of the pressure since the FEL isn't lowered all the way to the ground). At the moment, I have no way of supporting the FEL & bucket elevated so that I could relieve the pressure and then disconnect/reconnect the 4th hose.

The hydraulic pump system is mounted to the right side of the engine. There are 2 pumps... one is the hydraulic pump and the other is the power steering pump. It seems there must be a shaft or something that comes out of the engine into the middle section. The power steering pump is mounted to the front of the middle section and the hydraulic pump is mounted to the rear of the middle section.

When I reversed the tractor over to the shop, it seemed to steer fine (I couldn't go forward because of the tooth bucket). This implies that the power steering pump is still working and being driven.

I haven't started working on it yet this morning. I will be checking the hydraulic oil level first. It holds 11 gallons so I doubt it is really low. I have a pressure gauge male setup and can check the pressure at the rear remotes only. (This setup will not connect to the FEL valve as it needs to be female to do so).

I will keep you posted! Thanks again.

 

[mike0000]

Thanks for all the ideas! I really appreciate it.

Current status is... the tractor is backed into the shop with all 4 wheels up on railroad ties so the tractor is elevated. The backhoe and FEL are on the tractor because they can't be removed without working hydraulics. This means the backhoe is in the way and accessing the rear or underneath is difficult and that's why the tractor is up on railroad ties to make it easier to get underneath. The bucket & toothbar is still on but the FEL is NOT fully lowered to the ground. If I lower the FEL all the way to the ground then the FEL arms will be in the way of accessing the location of the hydraulic pump on the right side of the engine.

When I disconnected and reconnected the FEL hoses at the FEL valve, I could only do 3 of them. The 4th wouldn't disconnect (probably because of the pressure since the FEL isn't lowered all the way to the ground). At the moment, I have no way of supporting the FEL & bucket elevated so that I could relieve the pressure and then disconnect/reconnect the 4th hose.

The hydraulic pump system is mounted to the right side of the engine. There are 2 pumps... one is the hydraulic pump and the other is the power steering pump. It seems there must be a shaft or something that comes out of the engine into the middle section. The power steering pump is mounted to the front of the middle section and the hydraulic pump is mounted to the rear of the middle section.

When I reversed the tractor over to the shop, it seemed to steer fine (I couldn't go forward because of the tooth bucket). This implies that the power steering pump is still working and being driven.

I haven't started working on it yet this morning. I will be checking the hydraulic oil level first. It holds 11 gallons so I doubt it is really low. I have a pressure gauge male setup and can check the pressure at the rear remotes only. (This setup will not connect to the FEL valve as it needs to be female to do so).

I will keep you posted! Thanks again.

May be similar to my Branson, which uses two pumps. Like yours front pump is PS rear is hydraulics. I too did not loose PS. I’ll attach a picture of the drive gear that went out on mine. It’s splined all the way through, but the side that drove the hyd. Pump went out, PS side was fine.

 

[mmranch]

Checked the hydraulic oil... it was fine - a couple of quarts low.

Put jackstands under the bucket and lowered the FEL slightly to relieve pressure. Disconnected/reconnected the 4th hose on the FEL valve. Put pressure gauge on rear remote. Started the tractor and rear remote pressure was zero. PTO doesn't work. FEL doesn't work. Rear remote (backhoe) doesn't work. 3-Point doesn't work.

Attached is the hydraulic system schematic. From the Main Pump... hydraulic pressure goes to the PTO, FEL valve, Rear Remotes then lastly, the 3-Point lift.

Some relief valve could be stuck open but I'm not sure how I would find it. At this point, it seems to point to the Main Pump having a problem.


Thanks for the pics of the gear. Was that the replacement part? I don't see stripped teeth, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[mike0000]

Checked the hydraulic oil... it was fine - a couple of quarts low.

Put jackstands under the bucket and lowered the FEL slightly to relieve pressure. Disconnected/reconnected the 4th hose on the FEL valve. Put pressure gauge on rear remote. Started the tractor and rear remote pressure was zero. PTO doesn't work. FEL doesn't work. Rear remote (backhoe) doesn't work. 3-Point doesn't work.

Attached is the hydraulic system schematic. From the Main Pump... hydraulic pressure goes to the PTO, FEL valve, Rear Remotes then lastly, the 3-Point lift.

Some relief valve could be stuck open but I'm not sure how I would find it. At this point, it seems to point to the Main Pump having a problem.


Thanks for the pics of the gear. Was that the replacement part? I don't see stripped teeth, etc.

Thanks again.

Your welcome,

That is the bad/stripped out gear, it’s the inner most part that stripped out, but only the side driving hydraulics, (doesn’t show up in picture). Each pump has a “Male” shaft that inserts into the center of that drive gear.
I don’t know how to link my thread on repairing my Branson, but if you care to search for it, it’s in the Branson section.
I replaced that gear and the hydraulic pump. The pump seemed to be ok but the shaft had some wear, I was also afraid the pump may have caused the failure.

Mike

 

[oldnslo]

mmranch,
In the schematic there is a relief in the PTO block set to 175 Bar (17.5 Mpa) There is also a relief in the FEL control valve assembly. Rare but not impossible that relief valve spring broke causing a sudden failure like you experienced. Probably similar to splines going on the pump input drive. As Forest Gump said it happens...