A windpower first

[Hay Dude]

The free market system did not build the US highway system and it never would have. The ferry boat operators at US river crossings were appalled that the government would build bridges over the rivers using taxpayer money. Exxon, Chevron, Marathon, etc. are all investing heavily in alternative energy research.

Why we're investing $15 billion in a lower-carbon future | ExxonMobil

At ExxonMobil, we develop and deploy solutions that meet society’s needs. Today, that means taking a leading role in providing the products that enable modern life, reducing carbon emissions and developing needed technologies to advance a lower-carbon emissions future.

corporate.exxonmobil.com

With respect to vehicles & energy systems (I agree in part with you-that was favoring roads over rivers) when that infrastructure system was built, it still allowed any type of vehicle be it gas, NG, or EV to travel on it. There were battery powered cars 50 & even 100 years ago. Gas won out.
I get your point, but the government favoring one type of propulsion or energy system over another through compensatory or punitive measures is different than a highway system upon which all may travel.
Just sayin since its a thread about energy systems….

 

[buckeyefarmer]

One of the problems of “alternative” energy isn’t just storage (when the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow). It’s that the price to the consumer is disconnected from real supply-demand market forces. (Where’s all the capitalists who believe in markets?)

When I use my oven, dryer, A/C during low demand and high supply times of the day and my neighbor uses the same amount of electricity during high demand and low supply times of the day
…and the price my utility payed to the power plant varied 5:1, yet the utility charges me and my neighbor the same rate.
Guess what, I just subsidized my neighbors electric bill! That’s socialism!
Real time demand metering and a real time market pricing is the answer and would revolutionize energy (and society, innovation, etc..) like the laptop computer did.

The problem with this argument is it cost the generators the same amount to produce the same amount of electric either time. The fact your utility fleeces you with either made up charges, or charges based on them not forecasting properly how much energy to purchase, isn’t my problem.

 

[Egon]

Back 75 years ago, Did the government force people heating homes with coal into changing to HH oil, or was it an improvement brought about by free markets? Did the government subsidize this change?

Is todays change from HH oil and NG to EV’s and wind/solar power from improvements in free markets, or government subsidies, mandates and pressures to force changes on us?

Biden threatening oil executives with imprisonment? Government making oil exploration more difficult? Fuel pipeline permits being denied?

Are those free market pressures to change? I dont think so.

Bettcha there were subsidies and other perks available.

 

[Hay Dude]

Bettcha there were subsidies and other perks available.

Be interesting to see them.
However, we all know for a fact, there are subsidies for solar/wind and punitive measures and threats of imprisonment/fines for coal/oil.
Its unfair and not free market Capitalism

 

[Egon]

With respect to vehicles & energy systems (I agree in part with you-that was favoring roads over rivers) when that infrastructure system was built, it still allowed any type of vehicle be it gas, NG, or EV to travel on it. There were battery powered cars 50 & even 100 years ago. Gas won out.
I get your point, but the government favoring one type of propulsion or energy system over another through compensatory or punitive measures is different than a highway system upon which all may travel.
Just sayin since its a thread about energy systems….

Your saying horses and wagons, bicycles etc. would be allowed on all highways?

 

[Hay Dude]

Your saying horses and wagons, bicycles etc. would be allowed on all highways?

Thats sort of a different subject than EV versus gas cars and solar/wind versus coal/NG power plants.
Around here they are! The Amish & Mennonites are all over them-except the 4 lane highways, like I-95. Too crazy

 

[Egon]

Be interesting to see them.
However, we all know for a fact, there are subsidies for solar/wind and punitive measures and threats of imprisonment/fines for coal/oil.
Its unfair and not free market Capitalism

Fossil Fuels Received $5.9 Trillion In Subsidies in 2020, Report Finds

e360.yale.edu

 

[Hay Dude]

Fossil Fuels Received $5.9 Trillion In Subsidies in 2020, Report Finds

e360.yale.edu

Joe Biden once called for jailing oil executives

Joe Biden is denying that he ever said he wanted to ban fracking and technically he is somewhat right, he said he wanted to eliminate fracking. See the difference? Yeah, neither do I. But anyway, w…

americaswatchtower.com

Economic Standard: Federal Subsidies for Electric Cars Should Not Be Increased - The American Consumer Institute

As the American economy transitions to more renewable forms of energy, federal and state subsidies for electric vehicles should be consigned to history. While electric vehicles (EVs) subsidies might appear to be a creative way to encourage consumers to shift away from petroleum-powered cars...

www.theamericanconsumer.org

$12,500 electric vehicle incentive survives Biden's updated 'Build Back Better' proposal

The reform to the federal electric vehicle incentive program, which includes an increased $12,500 EV incentive, has survived President Biden’s...

electrek.co

 

[jyoutz]

Coal was killed by natural gas, which is cleaner and cheaper and very abundant. The plants require less maintenance and are cheaper to operate. Utilities don’t want to mess with coal anymore no matter what the regulatory structure is. Coal is last century.

 

[Hay Dude]

Coal was killed by natural gas, which is cleaner and cheaper and very abundant. The plants require less maintenance and are cheaper to operate. Utilities don’t want to mess with coal anymore no matter what the regulatory structure is. Coal is last century.

BINGO! Give that lib, I mean “centrist” a prize!

Free markets and capitalism mostly helped NG replace coal. There were some government pressures-mostly air quality standards, but nothing like the authoritarianism pressures we see from the current administration.

 

[Egon]

Joe Biden once called for jailing oil executives

Joe Biden is denying that he ever said he wanted to ban fracking and technically he is somewhat right, he said he wanted to eliminate fracking. See the difference? Yeah, neither do I. But anyway, w…

americaswatchtower.com

Economic Standard: Federal Subsidies for Electric Cars Should Not Be Increased - The American Consumer Institute

As the American economy transitions to more renewable forms of energy, federal and state subsidies for electric vehicles should be consigned to history. While electric vehicles (EVs) subsidies might appear to be a creative way to encourage consumers to shift away from petroleum-powered cars...

www.theamericanconsumer.org

$12,500 electric vehicle incentive survives Biden's updated 'Build Back Better' proposal

The reform to the federal electric vehicle incentive program, which includes an increased $12,500 EV incentive, has survived President Biden’s...

electrek.co

Can’t recall saying the electric car industry did not receive subsidies. Did mention that fossil fuel industry received subsidies!

 

[jyoutz]

BINGO! Give that lib, I mean “centrist” a prize!

Free markets and capitalism mostly helped NG replace coal. There were some government pressures-mostly air quality standards, but nothing like the authoritarianism pressures we see from the current administration.

Your ignorance is embarrassing. There have been loads of subsidies for both coal and gas over the years. Free market? That’s debatable considering that federal land oil and gas lease prices haven’t been increased in over 50 years while lease prices are much higher on state and private lands. A huge subsidy to that industry. Still grinding your axe. Babble on. I’m going to work now.

 

[workinonit]

It's an argument that time and eventually rolling blackouts will take care of. To my knowledge, there's not a NG single unit that can put the power on the grid that a coal fired or nuke can. The predominant portion of my regulator work these days is on comined cycle gas units. Either 1 on 1 or 2 on 1. Some simple cycle units in the mix. But we upgrade a dozen or so coal fired units a year. That means the license expirations are several years down the road. Some of them may never go away. I'm sure by the end of this decade we will see most coal fired units moth balled in the US.

 

[Ken45101]

increasing taxes on coal and gas companies operating on public land is just more taxes on us, the owners of the land.

Government profits 60-80 cents per gallon of gas sold but does virtually nothing to produce or provide it. OTOH, major oil companies profit about 3 cents per gallon while spending billions of dollars, oftentimes with zero results.

 

[MossRoad]

From here:

https://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i51/Long-History-US-Energy-Subsidies.html

 

[MossRoad]

And the thread keeps popping in political references, so please discontinue that or it will be closed. Thanks.

 

[Borane4]

It is not just the radioactivity either. The waste consists of materials which are extremely toxic in and of themselves and which will still be so even when the radioactivity of the materials have decayed considerably.
Eric

I am very curious what these extremely toxic materials are. Do you have any specific citations?
Thanks

 

[dmccarty]

Actually that is a great idea with just one fatal, but I think temporary, flaw. Current tech is already limited by the number of charge/discharge cycles that the battery can handle. But… using millions of EVs in a city as a giant sponge, soaking up excess power and discharging it later is a great idea. There are already power companies using warehouses full of used EV batteries for that very purpose. They use batteries that still hold charge, but not enough to meet the range needs of the vehicles they were in before being replaced. It’s a massive growth industry that I have some familiarity with.

Due to fire risks, I would not use the Lithium battery chemistry used in the various vendors Power Wall products. There are batteries using Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePo) that are very safe from fire. Not zero but pretty danged close. LiFePo batteries from reputable companies have a lifespan of 5,000 cycles if only half the power in the battery is used. If 80% of the power is used, the lifespan drops by half to 2,500 cycles.

If one was using half or less than half the power of a battery each DAY, the battery would have a lifetime of 13 years or so but if one was using most of the energy in the battery each day, the battery would last about 7 years. The batteries are not cheap, and there are limits to how large of a bank of batteries one can build, which is one variable on how many cycles one will have the battery system.

Simply put, the more energy pulled from the battery, and how often the battery is used, then the more the battery life decreases.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Regarding wind mill blades and dealing with "old" blades by using them to make cement.

The Wall Street Journal just had this story, Cement Makers Burn Turbine Blades as Wind Power Faces Recycling Headache, which is likely behind a pay wall.

Turbines are mostly made of steel, a widely recyclable material. But their blades are constructed of complex composite materials such as fiberglass and balsa wood that are difficult to separate and process, presenting a recycling challenge. As a result, blades that reach the end of their lives often end up in landfill.

Last year, more than 12,000 blades were scrapped globally, according to data provider BloombergNEF, which expects the number to exceed 28,000 in 2030. This could result in hundreds of thousands of metric tons of waste each year. Turbine blades can last 20 to 30 years, but companies often replace them earlier with more efficient designs.

Although wind-turbine blades can last longer than 30 years, a U.S. tax credit has spurred companies to upgrade their blades with larger models after 10 years to boost electricity output. The government aid has driven higher waste volumes in the U.S. compared with the European Union, which doesn’t have similar incentives for upgrades, said Chris Howell, senior director of recycling operations for the U.S. at Veolia Environnement SA, which has been running a U.S. turbine-blade disposal service since 2020.

Instead, old blades are increasingly being sent to cement factories, where they are burned in kilns to make clinker, a key ingredient in the building material.

Found these two statements "interesting."

“Incineration of blades in the kiln contributes to an inherently unsustainable solution,” said Lawrence Bank, a research engineer at the Georgia Institute of Technology. He said companies should first consider extending permits for wind farms, reusing blades in other turbines, or repurposing them for different uses or recycling.

Burning wind-turbine blades results in an emissions reduction of 27% compared with burying them in landfill and burning coal to make cement, according to an initial study by sustainability consultancy Quantis conducted in 2020. It can also reduce the need for raw materials such as limestone and clay.

One thing I did not see mentioned in the article, was that the edge of the blades can be worn out due to dust and salt particles. When I first read or saw this, I was surprised but it does make sense. Supposedly, blades are being made with the edges better protected from salt and dust particle damages which can be extensive.

Later,
Dan

 

[jyoutz]

increasing taxes on coal and gas companies operating on public land is just more taxes on us, the owners of the land.

Government profits 60-80 cents per gallon of gas sold but does virtually nothing to produce or provide it. OTOH, major oil companies profit about 3 cents per gallon while spending billions of dollars, oftentimes with zero results.

I’m not talking about taxes. My point was that LEASES for oil and gas exploration and production on federal lands are far less than what these same companies pay to lease state or private lands. These cheap leases are a federal subsidy for oil and gas. I’m not saying this is good or bad, but we should recognize that the treasury isn’t receiving free market value for these leases and therefore the taxpayer is subsiding oil and gas on federal lands. Is this good? Does it lower fuel prices? IDK, but let’s be honest and recognize these subsidies.