Cutting new road and flat pad through pasture

[MTGreen]

I have a need to cut a new road around 1500' long and make a pad ~80' foot square in a mixed pasture/sagebrush area on a 2-4 degree slope (no trees in the way). The road runs generally across/along the slope. The dirt is a loam/clay mix which I would call mildly rocky. I have not cut a new road or made such a large pad before, but I would like a road with good drainage that will last more than a few years and I would like to do both the road and pad with the equipment I have along with a rented ride-on compactor or maybe a rented excavator if possible.
Unfortunately, in the area I'm located in, hiring a professional involves being deeply gouged and waiting 8+ months. I have been trying to find a rental dozer, but they are also several months out.

Here is what I have available that may be of use:

• Deere 5000 series MFWD 53hp with 541 loader & 7' bucket ~7000lbs total
• Gannon/Woods brand professional model 7' box blade with hydraulic rippers and hydraulic top link ~1500lbs
• Bosch laser transit
• Have smaller backhoe but can rent excavator if needed/useful
• Rented ride on compactor

For the vegetation removal, I have the following:

• 5' bush hog
• 5' flail mower
• 6' 3pt spring harrow
• 8' towable heavy spring harrow

My understanding is that the road running across the slope is going to be a totally different animal than the pad as the pad will need to be cut into the slope.
I also understand that I don't own "earth moving equipment" and my 8500lb 53hp package is going to take considerably more time/effort than an 18000lb 100hp dozer.
I don't currently own a scraper blade -just the box blade above.

So far my understanding for the road is to cut the brush down, pull up the roots with harrow and/or ripper, cut in and lay several drainage culverts with gravel at strategic places, tilt the box blade and start cutting the ditches on either side of the road, then adjust tilt to smooth to crown, run the compactor over the road, lay the 3/4 roadbed, compact again, lay the smaller gravel, compact again.

For the pad, my understanding so far is to clear the vegetation as above, then start ripping and pulling the soil in the box and/or in the bucket depending on how loose from the uphill side to the downhill side and repeat until I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of level, then compact and use the laser transit to determine high/low spots and cut/fill/compact as needed.


First off, is this feasible with the equipment I have?
Am I on the right track here?
Any feedback and suggestions from folks that have done this before would be greatly appreciated.

 

[mikester]

"You can do anything you want, it just might cost more and take a little longer"

If time isn't an issue then what you have is good enough to get you what you want. A lot of people seem to get stuck in "gimbal lock" when it comes to making decisions and taking action.

Doers tend to get things done. Talkers get out their cellphones and apps and start posting on internet user groups.

 

[LouNY]

You can do it with your existing equipment. I would prefer a back blade with tilt and offset especially for cutting a ditch.
I would highly recommend a good highway fabric be laid down once you have your roadway and pad cut to shape and before any top dressing material is brought in, your gravel will say in place and not gradually subside into the sub base.
This place has a lot of information and materials;
Stabilization Fabrics - Woven

 

[Tinhack]

Gee, when I put my road in, I rented a road grader. Had it done in one day. The total length is also about 1500' with about a 10' elevation--Road to parking area. I did have to snake between a few trees but that worked out better. It allowed me to include water run offs. And if you've ever driven an old grader, you know that's no easy feat. It's all sandy clay and still here after 25 years. A little dampness will hard pack it like concrete but, I still use my back blade to dress it 1-2 times a year.

 

[ovrszd]

Let's concentrate on the road first. After all, the pad is worthless if you don't have an all weather access road. And the pad is 500% easier to build than a 1/4 mile road.

Since you may get responses from all over the World it's important to keep in mind where you are and your soil type. I'm assuming you get snow? I'm assuming your topsoil is thin? Topsoil defined as dirt with organic material mixed in.

As to elevation change. How much change between the starting point of your road, i.e., where it connects to a public road? Is that change continuous? Or are there hills and valleys?

As to side slope. Is it all the same direction, i.e., left to right when driving from existing road to pad area?

Once we have defined these issues then we all can better offer advice for what's needed. Understanding the spectrum of what is acceptable is huge. For example, you can drive up and down your desired driveway location with your tractor and then tell the rock truck to follow your tracks while spreading rock. Or you can build an elevated roadbed that will never drift snow or allow water to get on top of it.

Now that we have defined obstacles (slopes, drainage, etc.) and your ultimate goals, we can better decide if your equipment is adequate. As someone mentioned, you can do almost anything with any type of equipment if you have the time.

During this discussion, remember this, "a road without a drainage ditch is a drainage ditch".

 

[ovrszd]

Gee, when I put my road in, I rented a road grader. Had it done in one day. The total length is also about 1500' with about a 10' elevation--Road to parking area. I did have to snake between a few trees but that worked out better. It allowed me to include water run offs. And if you've ever driven an old grader, you know that's no easy feat. It's all sandy clay and still here after 25 years. A little dampness will hard pack it like concrete but, I still use my back blade to dress it 1-2 times a year.

I just finished a 1600' road, all following a ridge with no culverts, elevation change of 25'. Used a modern road grader. Took 16 hours. Windrowed all the topsoil back on each side exposing a 150' wide path of clay. Elevated the roadbed 12-18" creating a 14' wide roadbed. Then pushed the topsoil back creating a constant slope from road shoulders back to field elevation.

That would have taken two months with a 50hp tractor and blade.

Until MTGreen gives us more information we have to assume he is dealing with more weather variations than you are in Texas.

 

[Tinhack]

I don't remember the model number, but that old grader seemed to take a football field to turn around. And it didn't have power steering. But it sure could push some dirt.

 

[ovrszd]

I don't remember the model number, but that old grader seemed to take a football field to turn around. And it didn't have power steering. But it sure could push some dirt.

A Grader is a very specific machine. Especially the old rigid frame ones like you ran. As they modernized they became much more flexible in their use. For example, the turning radius of a modern grader is 23ft 8in.

To build the road I mentioned above I had to move approximately 500 cu yds of compacted topsoil, twice. I had to move approximately 700 cu yds of compacted clay.

The tractor box blade the OP mentioned will possibly move 1/5 cu yd of compacted material with each pass. Approximately 8,500 passes will be required just to move the material. Then the material must be spread, shaped and compacted. Will definitely be a Summer long project.

 

[MTGreen]

Doers tend to get things done. Talkers get out their cellphones and apps and start posting on internet user groups.

Doer with enough information to be dangerous is where I'm at right now and I'm not interested in doing this twice.
The whole point of the forum is trying to learn from the experience of others. And to point out the obvious, you're also posting here

 

[MTGreen]

Let's concentrate on the road first. After all, the pad is worthless if you don't have an all weather access road. And the pad is 500% easier to build than a 1/4 mile road.

Since you may get responses from all over the World it's important to keep in mind where you are and your soil type. I'm assuming you get snow? I'm assuming your topsoil is thin? Topsoil defined as dirt with organic material mixed in.

As to elevation change. How much change between the starting point of your road, i.e., where it connects to a public road? Is that change continuous? Or are there hills and valleys?

As to side slope. Is it all the same direction, i.e., left to right when driving from existing road to pad area?

Thanks for the detailed response!

This is mountainous western Montana, about half loam half clay with a mild-moderate number of rocks, most 6" or less on the long side. Topsoil ranges from 2-6" thick. Yes to snow, 50lbs/square ft snow load roof ratings and 48" frost line.

Road runs across the gentle slope north/south with east side slightly higher than west throughout. Road elevation change are all gentle slopes up ~4 feet first 500 feet along, then down ~6' next 500 foot, then up maybe ~8' last 500ft.

There is one existing drainage canal about 4' deep x 12' wide that it will cross over perpendicularly (runs downhill to west) at the 500' mark. I'm planning on digging out the bottom maybe 6 ", laying gravel, placing a 15" 20' long galvanized culvert at a 5 degree angle downhill, adding more gravel, then compacted fill with the road running over.

My goal is to make a driveway that is going to hold up to the snow and rain with min-moderate maintenance for years to come

 

[MTGreen]

The tractor box blade the OP mentioned will possibly move 1/5 cu yd of compacted material with each pass. Approximately 8,500 passes will be required just to move the material. Then the material must be spread, shaped and compacted. Will definitely be a Summer long project.

I'm not interested in halfa$$ing this so this makes me think I may need to sign up for the dozer rental several months out after all. Road graders are even farther out

 

[ovrszd]

Thanks for the detailed response!

This is mountainous western Montana, about half loam half clay with a mild-moderate number of rocks, most 6" or less on the long side. Topsoil ranges from 2-6" thick. Yes to snow, 50lbs/square ft snow load roof ratings and 48" frost line.

So we need to accommodate snow and rain. All soil with organic material mixed in needs removed from the roadbed area. This is considerable work. Unless you have a means to pick it up and carry it, you need to push it far enough from the roadbed and the "borrow" area to allow access to enough clay to build the roadbed. With the climate you describe, this means the roadbed needs elevated. Probably 12" above existing ground on the uphill side. Easiest to get the elevation material from the high side. Imagine how far back you have to push the topsoil..... And you need to move enough fill material to create a usable shoulder slope on the low side.

Road runs across the gentle slope north/south with east side slightly higher than west throughout. Road elevation change are all gentle slopes up ~4 feet first 500 feet along, then down ~6' next 500 foot, then up maybe ~8' last 500ft.

So I envision north/south travel is uphill? With high side to the left/east? The first 500' needs a drainage ditch on the left to drain the hill. At the breakover before starting down the next 500' we still need that drainage ditch, even when the road is not gaining/losing altitude. Once we start back downhill we maintain this drainage ditch to the first location of a roadbed drainage culvert.

There is one existing drainage canal about 4' deep x 12' wide that it will cross over perpendicularly (runs downhill to west) at the 500' mark. I'm planning on digging out the bottom maybe 6 ", laying gravel, placing a 15" 20' long galvanized culvert at a 5 degree angle downhill, adding more gravel, then compacted fill with the road running over.

From the description of this drainage canal I imagine it has to handle considerable flow at times??? 4' x 12' canal can handle a LOT of runoff. A dozen more times as much as a 15'culvert. Remember, a culvert doesn't reach capacity until it over ran with water. So to get the maximum amount of flow as would be indicated in a flowchart, the culvert must be submerged. Luckily you already have a 4' elevation change so merely filling in the canal will create 2.5' of freeboard above the culvert. To increase capacity you can lay multiple small culverts, 15" for example, or lay a single larger culvert. Understanding that a large culvert multiplies capacity faster than multiple small culverts. A 30" culvert will outflow 4 or 5 15" culverts. Simply because of less culvert wall resistance for the water to pass thru. You'll have to diagnose this and make a logical decision. If it were me I'd go to the Soil Conversation District office and have a surveyor/engineer look at it. They will already know how many acres that drainage ditch is controlling. They'll also know the slope of the surrounding area. This information will give them a calculation as to how big of culvert you need. I use this service often when altering my Township roads and adding culverts.

My goal is to make a driveway that is going to hold up to the snow and rain with min-moderate maintenance for years to come

I agree most heartedly with this!!!! When I'm elevating a roadbed I push dirt until I think I've got it. Then I come back the next day for a fresh look and move more dirt. I usually repeat this 3 times before I get close to enough. Another thing I do is drive on the elevated roadbed in my truck before making the final decision that I'm done

So we are talking about building a 12-14ft wide roadbed, elevated at least 12" above the landscape, 1500ft long. Dealing with side slope which increases the amount of material to move. Dealing with fore/aft slope and controlling runoff.

13ft wide roadbed, 3 to 1 shoulder slope, 12" high requires 18 cu ft of material p/foot of roadbed considering no sideslope. Ponder that for a moment. That's 27,000 cu ft for 1500ft of roadbed. That's 1000cu yds of compacted material to build the roadbed alone on a flat surface with no side slope. Since I don't know the amount of slope I won't try to calculate that added work.

What you want to end up with is a roadbed that water never runs across. Preferably a roadbed that sweeps itself clean if the snow comes with wind. Now you've got a roadbed that lasts for decades with minimal maintenance and infrequent addition of rock/gravel thru those years.

Remember my quote at the beginning of this discussion. "a road without a drainage ditch is a drainage ditch".

 

[ovrszd]

I'm not interested in halfa$$ing this so this makes me think I may need to sign up for the dozer rental several months out after all. Road graders are even farther out

Probably. Remember mankind used to build roads with a pickaxe and a shovel. So, yes, your tractor can do this. I think it would take me 40hrs minimum to build it with our Road Grader. I think if you worked on it every day you still couldn't build it in a month with your tractor. More likely it will take you all Summer. Then you have to build a pad.

 

[Etced]

Study this manual and you will be happy with the outcome.

 

[ovrszd]

I'm not interested in halfa$$ing this so this makes me think I may need to sign up for the dozer rental several months out after all. Road graders are even farther out

Touching on this rental thing again. I've never rented a construction machine. So my numbers here might be worthless....

I can hire a dozer for $125 p/hr. Maybe costs me $50 p/hr to rent a machine, then I have to fuel it which will cost approximately $25 p/hr, total out of pocket cost p/hr is $75? So I'm saving $50 p/hr.

I can run a Dozer fairly well. I'd say I'm 60% as effective as the owner of the Dozer would be. Rental cost p/hr versus hiring a Dozer is 60%.

Did I save anything? Probably not. The Dozer owner/operator will know things about how to do this that we might not.

There will be plenty of "finish" work to do with your tractor/box blade that you don't need the Dozer to do. Although it would be much faster letting the Dozer man do it. But if you need to trim costs you could have him rough it in and then you lay the top soil back and make your ditch/shoulder slopes like you want them.

 

[MTGreen]

From the description of this drainage canal I imagine it has to handle considerable flow at times??? 4' x 12' canal can handle a LOT of runoff. A dozen more times as much as a 15'culvert. Remember, a culvert doesn't reach capacity until it over ran with water. So to get the maximum amount of flow as would be indicated in a flowchart, the culvert must be submerged. Luckily you already have a 4' elevation change so merely filling in the canal will create 2.5' of freeboard above the culvert. To increase capacity you can lay multiple small culverts, 15" for example, or lay a single larger culvert. Understanding that a large culvert multiplies capacity faster than multiple small culverts. A 30" culvert will outflow 4 or 5 15" culverts. Simply because of less culvert wall resistance for the water to pass thru. You'll have to diagnose this and make a logical decision. If it were me I'd go to the Soil Conversation District office and have a surveyor/engineer look at it. They will already know how many acres that drainage ditch is controlling. They'll also know the slope of the surrounding area. This information will give them a calculation as to how big of culvert you need. I use this service often when altering my Township roads and adding culverts.

My apologies I should have provided some more information here. The canal was hand dug, not carved by prior rains/floods. And by hand dug, I mean literally as it dates back to the 1800s. It begins on my property close to my eastern uphill fenceline about 400 feet from where I need the road to cross. On the other side of and parallel to that fenceline is a seasonally filled ag canal which I have water rights to and a manual siphon (~12' head). My share in the seasonal canal is about 9.5 acre-inches which at siphon pressures is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 4.75" pipe. I'm not interested in purchasing a high dollar meter to use with a pump, so I use a siphon with a 4" commercially available pipe. The water usually gets routed by pipe to other areas of the property and the smaller canal I need to run the road across only will ever see the volume coming out of a 4" pipe at siphon pressures plus whatever rain can fall into the canal itself as it's not sloped to even drain the land around it.
So I'm thinking a single 15" ID culvert would be sufficient for the need?

 

[MTGreen]

Touching on this rental thing again. I've never rented a construction machine. So my numbers here might be worthless....

I can hire a dozer for $125 p/hr. Maybe costs me $50 p/hr to rent a machine, then I have to fuel it which will cost approximately $25 p/hr, total out of pocket cost p/hr is $75? So I'm saving $50 p/hr.

I can run a Dozer fairly well. I'd say I'm 60% as effective as the owner of the Dozer would be. Rental cost p/hr versus hiring a Dozer is 60%.

Did I save anything? Probably not. The Dozer owner/operator will know things about how to do this that we might not.

There will be plenty of "finish" work to do with your tractor/box blade that you don't need the Dozer to do. Although it would be much faster letting the Dozer man do it. But if you need to trim costs you could have him rough it in and then you lay the top soil back and make your ditch/shoulder slopes like you want them.

I got quoted by two local professionals here at around $50k+ flat fee & 5-12 months out.
I can rent a dozer for a week with delivery & pickup for $3500 for a D3 size & $4500 for a D5/6 size +fuel 2-3 months out.

I understand it is substantial work and I'm paying for expertise here along with the equipment, but I'm just not seeing the value as $3000+/hr.
From where I'm sitting it's plain gouging and taking advantage of the existing local market supply/demand mismatch

 

[JJT]

I got quoted by two local professionals here at around $50k+ flat fee & 5-12 months out.
I can rent a dozer for a week with delivery & pickup for $3500 for a D3 size & $4500 for a D5/6 size +fuel 2-3 months out.

I understand it is substantial work and I'm paying for expertise here along with the equipment, but I'm just not seeing the value as $3000+/hr.
From where I'm sitting it's plain gouging and taking advantage of the existing local market supply/demand mismatch

Get the D6, it's well worth the $1000 extra. In a day or two you'll be a reasonably good operator.

 

[ovrszd]

My apologies I should have provided some more information here. The canal was hand dug, not carved by prior rains/floods. And by hand dug, I mean literally as it dates back to the 1800s. It begins on my property close to my eastern uphill fenceline about 400 feet from where I need the road to cross. On the other side of and parallel to that fenceline is a seasonally filled ag canal which I have water rights to and a manual siphon (~12' head). My share in the seasonal canal is about 9.5 acre-inches which at siphon pressures is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 4.75" pipe. I'm not interested in purchasing a high dollar meter to use with a pump, so I use a siphon with a 4" commercially available pipe. The water usually gets routed by pipe to other areas of the property and the smaller canal I need to run the road across only will ever see the volume coming out of a 4" pipe at siphon pressures plus whatever rain can fall into the canal itself as it's not sloped to even drain the land around it.
So I'm thinking a single 15" ID culvert would be sufficient for the need?

Yep. 99.9% of the time it'll be fine.

 

[ovrszd]

I got quoted by two local professionals here at around $50k+ flat fee & 5-12 months out.
I can rent a dozer for a week with delivery & pickup for $3500 for a D3 size & $4500 for a D5/6 size +fuel 2-3 months out.

I understand it is substantial work and I'm paying for expertise here along with the equipment, but I'm just not seeing the value as $3000+/hr.
From where I'm sitting it's plain gouging and taking advantage of the existing local market supply/demand mismatch

Yep. I totally agree. Around here Dozers are plentiful. This time of year would create a wait time. But most certainly wouldn't be more than 6 weeks or so. And $50K, wow!!!!!

Are there hour limits on that weekly rental? If not, that's definitely the route to go.