Pole Barns Basics - what to do, what to avoid

[rs191]

We just bought a new home, which has a one-year-old 30 x 40 pole barn. The seller did not provide much information about the pole barn. It has a poured concrete floor, which was done after the town inspector signed off on the place. Based on some reading on TBN, this could be an "Alaskan slab", since you can see for a few inches under the edges of the barn from the outside. It is sitting on concrete piers, according to the plan and according to what can be seen from the edges. There are stairs up to a full-sized storage loft. There is no protective railing around opening at the top of those steps and the hand railing on the stairs doesn't even reach the top - like they ran out of wood.

The plan submitted to the town shows a metal roof and stairs in a back corner of the building. They put on asphalt shingles (heavier?) and the stairs are near the middle of the building. Don't know what else they did that didn't follow the engineering design. This is upstate NY, near Saratoga, so 30" snowfalls are possible.

The wall posts have two bolts and nuts near the top. Many of those bolts seem too short, because I can see the ends of the bolts do NOT engage all the threads of the nut.

A locksmith, who said he had been a carpenter for 25 years, pointed out several things about the building yesterday. When two horizontal boards meet over a wall post, having two stacked bolts through the middle of the post won't engage the horizontals properly He recommended adding two more bolts at the top of each post. (The locksmith "retired" from carpentry after a fall and other injuries.)

That retired carpenter also said I shouldn't put too much weight in the loft. Other than 2x4s stabilizing the stairs, there are no supports for the loft in the middle of this building. He can see the two-bys spanning the width are only held together in the middle by "mending plates".

I am looking for a company that builds pole barns and ask for an overall assessment of this giant shed. Besides the construction quality, the seller hadn't put drains or gravel around the building. After less than one year, there are 3"-6" erosion ditches below the roof edges. So drainage and possibly gutters are also going to be looked at.

Opinions on where to start? Yes - it was inspected by the town and an inspector we hired. I want to make this a durable struction, not a temporary one.

 

[ray66v]

Barns are often done on a low budget, or by low skill labor, which can leave them lacking structure.

If you post some clear photos of the overall construction, and any areas of concern, I'm sure you can get an accurate assessment from the members.

 

[deezler]

Don't worry about the roof trusses - they were surely engineered and made by a reputable truss company. If there is an attic room, it is surely made to hold some weight. My 30' wide attic-room trusses have a 2x10 bottom chord to span a 15' wide room. Yours similar?

But yeah it sounds like you might want to add more structural support from the posts to the truss carriers (headers). My 30x36 pole barn used 4x GRK structural screws from each side into the posts, instead of carriage bolts like yours. You could go around and blast some more GRKs into each post.

 

[rScotty]

I am looking for a company that builds pole barns and ask for an overall assessment of this giant shed. Besides the construction quality, the seller hadn't put drains or gravel around the building. After less than one year, there are 3"-6" erosion ditches below the roof edges. So drainage and possibly gutters are also going to be looked at.

Opinions on where to start? Yes - it was inspected by the town and an inspector we hired. I want to make this a durable struction, not a temporary one.

That sounds like an excellent plan. And this is the right time to do it. You already have a fairly new structure with the required inspections...now just need to make it better.

It is difficult to offer structural suggestions without actually seeing the building - but I like your approach to taking an economy barn and making it better. Finding an old retired carpenter to help create an overall plan would be my own approach too.

It seems that the weather pattern is producing larger storms recently. Ultimately, that may make changes to "minimal suitable construction". Might as well get ahead of that curve.
rScotty

 

[two_bit_score]

Might as well get ahead of that curve.

Always good advice.

 

[KennyG]

I'm sure we'd all like to see some pictures but it sounds like you've got a general idea of the issues. I don't like shingle roofs on pole barns but that's what you have. Is the truss spacing 4 foot or 8 foot? With 4 foot you probably have some margin left in roof load, 8 foot not so much. My immediate concern would be drainage. If you have slope to drain to, I would dig a trench at least a foot deep all around the building, add drain tile and backfill with gravel.

Is the loft over the entire building? How high? I'm having a little trouble envisioning this.

 

[rs191]

Thanks for the replies with info and good advice! I will try to attach photos here and see how it looks. Have several more to post if the first photo works.

The floor and garage doors (w/openers) were done by contractors and look good. All the friends-and-family DIY construction is what I want checked out by good pole barn companies. Getting callbacks from contractors is the hard part around here.

One entrance door, two garage doors, one homebuilt small "door" in farthest corner of barn from the camera was used for Deere riding mower. Weathered particle board was the "ramp" used for the lawn mower. Just the one window over the garage doors.

CB box is next to entrance door. One outlet is by the CB box and the other two outlets are mounted by the two garage door openers. No lights, inside or out. No other outlets.

Seller had five Harbor Frt LED garage lights chained together, hanging at the same height as the door openers. He ran a long extension cord from the one power outlet to the first overhead light in the chain. When we did the walkthrough just prior to the closing, the extension cord and HF lights were gone. They weren't permanent, so it was his legal right, but I didn't expect it - considering how much we paid over the asking price.

Land slopes away on the right side, as you can see. The slope behind the building is much steeper, heading towards a cliff about 75 ft. away.

 

[rs191]

Many (most?) of the posts have unused threads on the bolts. First thought - install GRK structural screws as recommended by "deezier" and then see if the existing "short" bolts can be, one-by-one, replaced.

 

[KennyG]

If the "loft" is actually formed in the trusses, there should be some standard loading capability. Again what is the spacing? For a loft, they should be residential trusses, not agriculture and have two foot spacing.

 

[rScotty]

View attachment 825514
Many (most?) of the posts have unused threads on the bolts. First thought - install GRK structural screws as recommended by "deezier" and then see if the existing "short" bolts can be, one-by-one, replaced.

Well.... I think we see what you mean. That photo kinda says it all.
Is that pex or power draped over the drywall screw?

Structually, many MEs consider that three fully engaged threads will develop the full strength of a nut.... the rest are for backup. However, those are ridiculous. Surely those joints were not inspected.

BTW, with the GRKs It makes no sense to put multiple structural screws on the same vertical line. Might want to offset them laterally.

rScotty

 

[rs191]

The concrete pour looks good. I hope the rebar placement was good, there's a vapor barrier, that it is not on loose fill, etc. The seller would not supply the name of the concrete company.

The stairs were in the back of the garage on the plan submitted to the town, but were installed towards the middle of the garage. Those two 2x4s are the only verticals not part of the outside framing.

Handrails don't extend to the top of the steps and there is no structure/barrier around the opening in the loft's floor. Don't know how a CO was issued with a 3'x10' hole in the floor of the loft. But the concrete pour, loft floor and steps were probably installed AFTER the inspector left. He "believed" the concrete hadn't been there when he inspected. The inspection was in late 2022. The electrical signoff sticker was dated November 2022.

The toothed "mending plates" hold the ends of the loft's floor joists (?) together. They are the only things connecting the long boards together across the 30 ft. width. And they are all (with a few exceptions) in a straight line from front to back. They aren't in the middle, they are offset by 1 or 2 feet. I was wondering if the two different board lengths were supposed to alternate each time, so the "mending plates" are offset from the adjoining ones and there wouldn't be one long straight weak point for the full depth of the building (40 ft.)?

 

[Snobdds]

That's scary

You need to get a support under that floor where the joists meet.

 

[rs191]

Well.... I think we see what you mean. That photo kinda says it all.
Is that pex or power draped over the drywall screw?

Structually, many MEs consider that three fully engaged threads will develop the full strength of a nut.... the rest are for backup. However, those are ridiculous. Surely those joints were not inspected.

BTW, with the GRKs It makes no sense to put multiple structural screws on the same vertical line. Might want to offset them laterally.

rScotty

That line draped over the drywall screw was the 50 ft. extension cord that fed power to the HbrFrt chained LED shop lights. The extension cord plugged into the one wall outlet. Lights were turned on by plugging it in. No switches. Other than the garage opener lights, those gave the only lighting. The extension and the LED shop lights were removed the day before we closed on the house.

GRK structural screws - I agree with the idea of installing them laterally, to fully tie the post and boards together!

The locksmith (former master carpenter) pointed out that when two boards met over a post, their ends butted up AT the post. Putting carriage bolts right where the board ends touch is NOT a good joining method. So there might be holding power issues with those bolts because the nuts are not fully engaged, but also because some of them are at the board ends.

 

[rs191]

The small rear door for the riding mower. Yes, that was hand-crafted. Yes, those are straight daylight views at the top and bottom, no overhangs, not drip edges, no gaskets or seals. You are correct - it is not water-tight.

 

[rs191]

The loft. Images captured from a video. Second photo shows the top of the stairs (behind the video control icons).

 

[rs191]

Photo from back corner of garage towards the front, showing one year (or less) of erosion on one side of the garage. This is the downhill side, the right side back in post #7. Seller had piled old 2x6 boards there, to try to reduce erosion from roof runoff. He took those boards with him, just before the closing.

Photo from back corner of garage, across the back wall's width. The concrete pier shown is the same one that is at the extreme right side of prior photo in this post.
The ground slope is steeper to the right of this photo. Around 70 ft. away is a very steep gradient.

My amateur idea for the sides is to dig sloped trenches in the roof drip zone, install sleeved drain pipes and then backfill with gravel.

For the structure's back wall, because of the strong slope, I think a retaining wall could be built 5 ft. to 8 ft. from wall, with drain pipes and gravel again. All drains would be extended a few feet beyond the right side of the second picture, towards the steep slope and the creek at the bottom.

But there is no clear path around the barn toward the back yard seen in the background. Maybe a second, lower, retaining wall is needed to cover the drainage pipes and to provide a level surface for small equipment (Kubota BX size) to access the back yard. The well is in the front yard, so back yard access would be for septic, tile field, etc. That second retaining wall isn't vital now, but there's a fenced area between the house and barn preventing passage. The far end of the house does not have much room between multiple tree trunks and the air conditioner unit. There are also natural gas pipes and sprinkler water lines on that far side.


I know I give too much info. A habit I picked up over many years of dealing with specs on building and modifying computer systems. I would tell team members "Give them what they need, not just what they ask for." And then I would have to explain to the dismayed users (who wrote the initial specs) that I meant the final product should be better than their initial request's wording. Talking through their business requirements and then asking "what if" questions would give them what they really required.

After 38 years in computers, I can say that only ONE system user every handed over PERFECT specifications for EXACTLY what he NEEDED. Every variable, every combination of variables, every condition and contingency - all thought out before we first met to discuss his project. He told me everything that was needed, from memory. I wrote it all down as he dictated complex rules as if he was calling out a grocery list.

That guy was in charge of all service departments and all service personnel training for a national car manufacturer. He might not have been the Dos Equis "most interesting guy in the world", but he was damned talented.
- He knew the names of each of the hundreds of mechanics working in the service areas of all the dealerships.
- He successfully raced motocross bikes, as in winning trophies.
- He could talk, in detail, about any aspect of the engines and transmissions used in their cars.
- He played classical 12-string guitar. Talented enough that people at the corporate HQ looked forward to his concert at the annual holiday part.
- His Christmas cards were incredible pencil LINE drawings of detailed holiday scenes. Artwork, actually.

I'd tell new users of that guy's talents, and that he had thought of EVERY aspect of the programming he needed. I'd say "Let me hear your list of talents. Match or beat his expertise and I'll think we don't need to discuss your specifications."

// Sorry, just an old guy trying to take his mind off of worries about the new barn!! //

 

[KennyG]

Drain tiles and lots of backfill and I think you will be OK on the erosion. The bracing your loft has to the rafters gives you some capability. It may be ok for light storage, especially if you keep the load away from the center. The plates on the joists look pretty worthless for floor loading. It wouldn't be cheap, but I would consider doubling the joists with one to span the joints.

You could try to rebuild those doors into something that would have a jamb, but I think I would just scrap them and see if I could rework it for a small overhead door.

 

[redman135]

Would spouting on the roof and pipe the runoff into the trees solve the erosian problem for the same or less cost than drains?

Inside, since the joins are almost on centre, I would just bite the bullet and put in a row of support at the gangnail joiners to stop the mezzinine floor from sagging. In my area you could not get compliance with a line of unsupported joins like that. Also check there are no time bombs with the stairs as you say they don't match the plans.
Good Luck.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

could be better, but i've seen worse. How are the poles anchored to the Piers? I think you could put fill and seed around the building and be ok. Or gravel. I put stone 3 ft out from my pole barn, no gutters. I've had no erosion.

 

[rs191]

Drain tiles and lots of backfill and I think you will be OK on the erosion. The bracing your loft has to the rafters gives you some capability. It may be ok for light storage, especially if you keep the load away from the center. The plates on the joists look pretty worthless for floor loading. It wouldn't be cheap, but I would consider doubling the joists with one to span the joints.

You could try to rebuild those doors into something that would have a jamb, but I think I would just scrap them and see if I could rework it for a small overhead door.

I did a close-up shot of that small lawn mower door, so there was no perspective. It is only about 5 feet high. If you meant an overhead roller door, like security doors on urban stores, maybe . . . I was wondering if the classis sideways sliding barn doors would seal tight enough to keep the chipmunks out.