Hillside brush cutting power and stability 425/1430/1445

[m5040]

Well if your family farmed the same spot for five or six hundred years it gives you lots of time to pick them and move them to build foundations and roads... You are clearly making a great start on yours!

I actually think of that often. It is my problem that I chose to carve a homestead out of raw forest on a small budget.

 

[2manyrocks]

That brings up another question. Would you suggest buying the utility grapple or buying the hoe attachment and using it for both purposes?

 

[ponytug]

I actually think of that often. It is my problem that I chose to carve a homestead out of raw forest on a small budget.

Well, steady as she goes, as they say. One day at a time, or is it one rock at a time? I'm pretty sure those intrepid Swiss and Austrians didn't have much of a budget 500 years ago either. I'm sure that you are doing great based on the photos that you posted.

That brings up another question. Would you suggest buying the utility grapple or buying the hoe attachment and using it for both purposes?

I think that is a huge "it depends". It depends on what you plan to do, and how often you plan to do it. The PT buckets favor lighter weight for more load capacity compared to a skid steer. I knew that I was going to set a lot of fairly deep trenches, so I went with the trencher and discovered that it isn't terrible at some excavator type work. (Terraces, but not say underground vaults)

I don't own a grapple, though I do own a 4n1 bucket; I just son's have that much slash to deal with. I chip my limbs at the tree for the most part, so I only handle it once. There are others here that have to deal with a lot more brush, and they use their grapples frequently. Some have the PT grapple, and some have added grapple teeth to the large bucket or forks. I don't really see the hoe as a substitute for a grapple, but I don't know what your plans are.

All the best,

Peter

 

[m5040]

I bought a Titan hoe and modified it to fit the PT along with their thumb. I use it for extracting rocks and then loading them, and also for firewood - lift tree, slice then lift large pieces to splitter table. It can't do big brush piles efficiently and everything has to be crosswise to the tractor's path.

I have a Ryans' Log grapple that works well for brush and logs as it rotates to pick and can carry long objects straight out in front and follow turns if needed.
When I bought the PT(s) new, I got the grapple bucket as it is a tooth dirt bucket and a brush grapple - dual purpose for almost the price of one.

I never used a PT grapple but I have seen ads stating they were modified indicating they are not indestructible. A lot of people get the Wicked brand as they make a good selection of light weight grapples that are well made.

I think for the price of the tractor, you should eventually invest in whatever attachment you need. As I listed in prev post, I made adapters to change from PT to SSQA couplers where the attachment market selection is plentiful and cheaper but you loose some performance due to the extra weight. And it is easy to sell skid steer attachments locally if you decide you don't want to keep them.

I have tried 4 in 1 buckets and don't like them for much. I only use mine for dumping into a screening plant cause the PT can't lift high enough and then tilt forward sufficiently to empty the bucket so I just open the bucket. A proper grapple and a good "grab" can test the weight limits of the machine. I don't think you can get anywhere near that amount with a 4n1.

 

[ponytug]

Different strokes for different folks, definitely! I use my 4n1 for a few things and when full of gravel (granite), it is right at the limit for the 1445. It is my prime tool for grading, ripping into (well shaving) rock hard clay soil by back dragging.

I would echo @m5040 about getting the attachments you need.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

Yes to getting all the attachments you might need, and order them all at the same time as the machine. That minimizes shipping costs VS individual items.

 

[smilindave]

Being that I only live 6 hrs from Tazewell, I enjoy making the trip for accessories.

 

[2manyrocks]

Being that I only live 6 hrs from Tazewell, I enjoy making the trip for accessories.

If you've test driven the PT425/1430/1445 models, I'm interested in what you thought of each one.

 

[marrt]

Okay, this question has been asked many times and there’s a lot of content in the archives. However, the problem with forums is the content is difficult to find without spending a lot of time browsing the search results.

So, here’s my comment. I first bought a 425. I liked it so much, I wanted a larger version and purchased a used 1845, selling the 425 to my neighbor (he’s mowing the lawn with it as I write this response). I then missed the 425 and bought another used one. Since then, I’ve bought more property and I currently own an 1845, two 425’s, a Kubota L-3901, a Takeuchi T8 compact track loader, a Takeuchi TB-240 mini-excavator, and three zero turn mowers. I say that to say this, if I were forced to have only one machine, it would be a 425. That’s because it can handle almost any small job, along with larger mowing and bucket work. Its small size also comes in handy at times. Everything is a trade-off, between time, money, and speed. You only get to pick two.

For mowing a hillside with six-foot brush (is that diameter or height), you can forget about the 425 if we’re talking 6-inch diameter. That’s way too large for it. I have the brush cutter for the 425 but I switch to another machine if I’m cutting anything much over one inch in diameter. Also, you didn’t mention budget. I know, you want to spend the least possible but enough to get the job done. However, it’s more complicated than that. In many cases, it can be better to consider a used machine with more capability if new breaks the budget.

As to wheel motors on the 425, they probably still come with 14.2 cubic inch motors. I went from this size to 22.8 cubic inches. I still do not move around at full speed (about 5 mph) because it’s way too bumpy where I live and I’m getting old. My other 425 has 14.2 cubic inch motors. Although this tractor can go faster, the extra speed does not get used by me. Also, as you go up in size for wheel motors, the wheel motor mount must be modified (made larger). This is probably one reason why PT does not offer this as an option.

Since I don’t know your personal situation, it’s hard to make a strong recommendation. But I would recommend you carefully consider what the machine will be used for 80% of the time and buy a machine for that use. This could mean you need to buy used to save money. That is more hassle but sometimes it’s the only best option. For the other things you want to do, I would consider renting a machine optimized for that purpose. I’ve done this for years and it’s a good way to go.

 

[2manyrocks]

I've read quite a few older threads that have been informative. My impression is that Kent was the first member to upgrade his PT 425 wheel motors, and at one point posted he'd go with the PT 1430 if he had to it do again. It appears to me that he was mowing the side of a mountain near Sevierville, TN in the Smokey Mountains, where I'm only cutting a 18 degree hillside in Middle Tennessee although I need to measure the slope on another area of the hillside to make sure of what I'm dealing with.

If you have an estimate of the cost to upgrade the PT425 wheel motors, that might help me to justify paying more for the PT1430.

The brush I'd be cutting is a tangled mess of 6 foot tall briars and vines. The saplings that are too big I'd cut later with a chainsaw.

Part of the problem is not just cutting the overgrown mess today, but keeping it cut hereafter. I have a 52hp kubota and a 25hp Kubota for maintaining the less steep areas of the farm. The PT would be used for cutting the hillsides, creek banks, and other less accessible areas.

One tractor dealer nearby just recently began renting Ventrac 4520's equipped with Kubota 32hp gas engines, dual wheels, and brush cutters for $550 day. This is actually more expensive than renting a full size Kubota CTL and brush cutter, but my concern with the Kubota is having a track come off.

A line clearing crew has been working in the area with a tracked forestry mulcher. They told me the entire crew spent a day putting the track back on when it came off.

I've contacted a contractor to get a bid from him to cut it with his forestry mulcher. It remains to be seen if his pricing is such that it makes better sense to hire him than to buy another machine or to take the risk of renting a machine and it possibly end up damaged doing this job. I cut part of this area with my tractor this week, and a vine destroyed the oil seal on my brush cutter. Unexpected things can happen.

I've looked for used PT's, but they are pretty scarce anywhere near middle Tennessee.

IMO, PT should be offering a 25hp diesel option for a PT 1425 since they no longer offer 30hp diesels for the PT1430. My experience has been that gas engines on tractors are gas guzzlers and don't have the longevity or reliability of good diesel engines.

 

[m5040]

IMHO the PT tractor is a jack of all trades and master of none. It would be nice if they had a high/low range (instead of swapping wheel motors) but they don't and yet still develop the torque to run a bucket into a bank and fill it with material. I have PTs and regular tractors and almost never use the regular ones except for a logging (winch) and snow plowing due to the cab. I have wrote before that on the PT the engine sits low and between the wheels unlike standard tractors. After using mine for years, I can almost not worry about a roll over on side hills (this might be a bad thing). Unlike me, you might be better off with the PT cutters as I mostly use skid steer implements which are much heavier and exasperate the side hill issue.
Just yesterday I thought of this post while using a rotating log grapple on a side hill and was annoyed at how far out of plumb is was hanging (due to the side hill) and how it couldn't get below the brush because the jaws were now not parallel to the ground. After I picked up a pile, the grapple swung and caused the uphill wheel on the PT to lift off the ground an inch or so. (these log grapples swing around like a cowbell. Although this happened it still felt OK, even know it was the worse scenario I could imagine with the loader at full height and a hanging load that would swing out beyond the wheel track. I think once you use a PT with front attachments you will park your Kubota.
I agree on the diesel, and wonder what they will do once they use up their supply of 45 and 60 HP Deutz engines?

 

[ponytug]

One could always dream...

A 25-Horsepower Heavy-Fueled Rotary Engine in a Basketball-Sized Package From: LiquidPiston

The new engine is 1/5th the size and weight of current diesel piston engines of the same power rating.

www.oemoffhighway.com

The hybrid version would be fun, but I am sure pricey.

Seriously, there are a number to choose from. Kubota, Perkins, Yanmar, and others all make engines in that 25-70HP range.

All the best,

Peter

 

[m5040]

I don't think they want to deal with the new diesel emissions, and the extra room a radiator needs.
But yes, I they came out with a 25hp kubota powered trac!!

 

[2manyrocks]

I agree on the diesel, and wonder what they will do once they use up their supply of 45 and 60 HP Deutz engines?

That's is a serious question because once you get into that HP range, what gas engines could they realistically substitute? Not having 45 and 60hp diesels would seem a very serious setback, IMO, for the larger machines.

The 1430 gas engine version with a brush cutter plus delivery is already in the same price range as a TYM T474 with the Kujke 48hp diesel, and that kind of PT pricing is a serious obstacle to me buying a PT. Good grief, they are asking a premium price and yet PT has a parts only warranty that doesn't cover labor at any local dealer for factory defects? And is it true that they remove the part numbers from their components so you can't just go buy replacement parts from the OEM makers, too?

 

[2manyrocks]

I don't think they want to deal with the new diesel emissions, and the extra room a radiator needs.
But yes, I they came out with a 25hp kubota powered trac!!

Is that some new announcement because I don't see one on their product page?

I don't the radiator as a problem because of the posts in other threads saying that the lighter gas engine in the 1430 means there is less counterbalance to loads in the FEL compared to the heavier diesel option they used to have.

 

[ponytug]

That's is a serious question because once you get into that HP range, what gas engines could they realistically substitute? Not having 45 and 60hp diesels would seem a very serious setback, IMO, for the larger machines.

The 1430 gas engine version with a brush cutter plus delivery is already in the same price range as a TYM T474 with the Kujke 48hp diesel, and that kind of PT pricing is a serious obstacle to me buying a PT. Good grief, they are asking a premium price and yet PT has a parts only warranty that doesn't cover labor at any local dealer for factory defects? And is it true that they remove the part numbers from their components so you can't just go buy replacement parts from the OEM makers, too?

I think that should to decide what works for you. Nobody here is getting a commission, or brownie points from Power-Trac.

Dealers can be good, mediocre, or awful. There are a couple brands that I would not consider because the dealers are so poorly run (or worse).

This forum has some very experienced folks on it, and if you can turn a wrench yourself, it is a great resource. If you can't, I would buy a dealer supported version and a trailer, or hire someone to do the work.

We all have our own constraints, strengths, and challenges.

All the best,

Peter

 

[2manyrocks]

I've owned a Terramite for 20 years so I have some experience with keeping a hydraulic based machine repaired.

If I paid full list price for a new PT and had any significant problems right up front, I wouldn't be too happy about having to do the repairs myself because of their parts only warranty.

 

[marrt]

The reason there’s no diesel option for the small tractors is cost. Or, I should really say price. It would make the unit several thousand dollars more expensive, which would be uncompetitive in many ways. When I bought my first 425 twenty years ago, it was $8500. Now, I see it is $16,000. Heck, I think the 1445 was $16,000 when it first came out years ago.

The wheel motors are around $700 each. However, keep in mind, you would need to modify the wheel mount weldment slightly. The larger displacement wheel motors are about ½ inch longer. While you could use a spacer to make up the difference, I elected to cut out a ½ inch thick plate and weld it to the mount. This involved cutting a large hole and a bolt circle in the plate.

My modified 425 uses a 35-horsepower motor and larger wheel motors than used on the 1430. But still, it’s no “powerhouse”. I purchased a made-in-Japan Takeuchi T8 for a little over $25,000, with 1000 hours on it. It has a 75HP Kubota engine and 2-speed motors. In terms of capability and sophistication, it’s light years ahead of the 425. And since a hydraulic brush cutter obviously runs on the ground, this option would be quite stable I think, particularly going up and down hills (as opposed to across). It would also be WAY more capable and usable for lots of other tasks. These days, many skid steer attachments can be found cheaper than the equivalent Power-Trac attachment. Something to consider.

 

[ponytug]

I've owned a Terramite for 20 years so I have some experience with keeping a hydraulic based machine repaired.

If I paid full list price for a new PT and had any significant problems right up front, I wouldn't be too happy about having to do the repairs myself because of their parts only warranty.

That happened to me, actually. A hydraulic motor seal blew at about five hours. PT was great about fixing it, but knowing nothing about servicing hydraulic equipment at the time, I was convinced I was going to kill the tractor by doing something totally incompetent. No further issues for awhile until another wheel motor blew a seal, and I got my old one back. I remember that Terry commented at the time that the wheel motor seals almost never fail, and I guess getting your own motor back later tends to reinforce that idea.

FWIW, I have a few skid steer attachments, and I would just comment that I think in general skid steers have much larger lift capacities. I think that as a result, many skid steer attachments tend to be heavier than the Power-Trac version, which may be a positive or a negative.

All the best,

Peter

 

[2manyrocks]

One question I have is whether the Ventrac front lift system would have trouble cutting this 6' tall brush since it is limited in lift height when compared to a PT like Moss Road lifting his brush cutter over some brush and then dropping it on it?