Got asked to bid a very unusual project

[Hay Dude]

Maybe part of the problem is a failure to communicate instead of directly asking SEPTA? They might say they don't have the money to take care of all of it. They might say you could have access to the bridge if they were provided with adequate proof of insurance? Maybe they'd abandon the whole thing to the conservancy? Maybe the conservancy doesn't want the responsibility of dealing with future log jams?

If they granted access, would the work be easier, less risky, and more cost effective?

The point is it's impossible to know without communicating effectively.

As said before, we asked them.
No access permitted.

Honestly, I see no advantage of working from the tracks. They are deteriorated, dangerous and pretty high.

Not to complicate things, but there’s a grand plan in the works where SEPTA will remove iron tracks (not the ties) and the Conservancy wants bids to remove all ties, install new ties/sleepers and a wooden walkway with railings.

But that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.

For now, the need is to keep the water flowing as freely as possible to reduce high water levels during floods.

 

[sea2summit]

As said before, we asked them.
No access permitted.

Honestly, I see no advantage of working from the tracks. They are deteriorated, dangerous and pretty high.

Not to complicate things, but there’s a grand plan in the works where SEPTA will remove iron tracks (not the ties) and the Conservancy wants bids to remove all ties, install new ties/sleepers and a wooden walkway with railings.

But that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.

For now, the need is to keep the water flowing as freely as possible to reduce high water levels during floods.

I'm not so sure. A ~20 ton pipe layer on the tracks with two dudes rigging could probably break up a lot of that and hand it off to a yarder on the beach pretty quick, at least get you done to the water line without having to get specialized equipment like one of those swamp excavators or long boom that may or may not have enough capacity to lift whole logs at that distance.

 

[2manyrocks]

If the Conservancy is trying to work a deal with them to use the bridge as a walkway later, this whole thing needs to be approached in a way that maintains their working relationship.

 

[kevin37b]

Experience comes from mistakes ,caused by stupidity .

 

[sea2summit]

Experience comes from mistakes ,caused by stupidity .

And arrives seconds after you needed it.

 

[scootr]

What happens if you break it free? Will it go someplace you can collect it easier?
Can you build a trap for the debris someplace more accessible downstream? Just a different thought.

 

[2manyrocks]

This is an opportunity to be seen either as the guy who fixed a problem for everybody or the guy who caused a problem for everybody.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

If you need to contain the debris, I'm thinking the best point is at the beginning when it's all in one place and holding still.

Yes I am beginning to think a floating platform, anchored at the tip of the “sand bar” might be a decent point from which to cut/release pieces, but this brings about another issue:

If you stand on sandbar and cut pieces to create space, soon you’ll have logs in the water to cut. Can’t put chainsaw in the water.

A log will always float with 10% or so out of the water. As you cut, what's left will rise up.

But yeah, your saw is going to get wet.

I'd be more worried about destabilizing the pile as you cut.

 

[scootr]

If you need to contain the debris, I'm thinking the best point is at the beginning when it's all in one place and holding still.


A log will always float with 10% or so out of the water. As you cut, what's left will rise up.

But yeah, your saw is going to get wet.

I'd be more worried about destabilizing the pile as you cut.

Getting on that pile with a saw could be one of the most regretful things you ever do. Looks like an accident waiting to happen. Does the water flow recede in the summer ?

 

[2manyrocks]

Thank you for saying that scooter.

 

[LouNY]

A large JLG would be the only way I'd put myself out in the middle of that. A person could do a lot of cutting and hooking from a JLG with the crane pulling stuff out.

 

[sea2summit]

What happens if you break it free? Will it go someplace you can collect it easier?
Can you build a trap for the debris someplace more accessible downstream? Just a different thought.

I'm kind of wondering how many would float vs sink or something in between. They are likely very waterlogged in addition to having tons of silt/sand/rocks embedded weighing it down.

 

[CliffordK]

What is your summer flow? Winter flow? Spring floods? etc?

I'd argue to start planning now, but leave it alone until July/August when it would be more convenient and safer to pull it apart.

I'd also really argue with the railroad to get access to the bridge. You're working on their problem anyway. Set up a small jib crane on the bridge that you can manage a grapple, then a bigger vehicle with a winch on the bank. Drop the grapple from the jib crane, then winch to shore. Even a dozer with a winch would work well. Pull your grapple back to the middle of the river with the jib, and start over.

As mentioned earlier, you'll lose a few logs, and it would be beneficial to design a catch downstream.

 

[dodge man]

Having done surveys for bridge replacements and knowing how they design bridge heights and waterway openings I can see what’s going on now with that last group of pictures. My opinion is the log jam in the main channel isn’t the biggest part of the problem but the area you are calling the flood plain. When the river is in flood is spreads out and all the stuff in the overflow area is slowing down the flow.

From and engineering point of view for flow what does the other side of the bridge look like? It doesn’t help to do one side if the other side is just as restricted.

 

[2manyrocks]

Is there a google maps satellite view that shows the whole area?

 

[groundcover]

 

[Hay Dude]

What is your summer flow? Winter flow? Spring floods? etc?

I'd argue to start planning now, but leave it alone until July/August when it would be more convenient and safer to pull it apart.

Yes, planning for the “drought” months.

I'd also really argue with the railroad to get access to the bridge. You're working on their problem anyway. Set up a small jib crane on the bridge that you can manage a grapple, then a bigger vehicle with a winch on the bank. Drop the grapple from the jib crane, then winch to shore. Even a dozer with a winch would work well. Pull your grapple back to the middle of the river with the jib, and start over.

As mentioned earlier, you'll lose a few logs, and it would be beneficial to design a catch downstream.

Amazing how everyone keeps pushing for that, but the RR won’t allow access. LOL
They just won’t.
Let’s put that to rest.

Besides, Any kind of “crane/winch rig” would get pulled off the bridge like a toy if a larger piece broke off in the current with cable attached.

 

[Hay Dude]

Having done surveys for bridge replacements and knowing how they design bridge heights and waterway openings I can see what’s going on now with that last group of pictures. My opinion is the log jam in the main channel isn’t the biggest part of the problem but the area you are calling the flood plain. When the river is in flood is spreads out and all the stuff in the overflow area is slowing down the flow.

From and engineering point of view for flow what does the other side of the bridge look like? It doesn’t help to do one side if the other side is just as restricted.

The other side is fairly clear of debris, but there are “junk trees” growing on the back side, and they catch floating logs, too.

Everything needs to be cleared. Downed trees and live, growing trees.

The log jam in the river is the dangerous part everyone is focusing on, but thats only a small part of the work. By drought season, the river will be 3’ deep and easier to work on. The pictures I took this week are with rain/snow runoff. So it’s deeper than usual.

 

[Hay Dude]

Experience comes from mistakes ,caused by stupidity .

Yep, and little dogs sit on the porch accomplishing nothing because they’re scared of “liability”, while big dogs get off the porch and get the jobs done.

So there’s that, too.

Look, I’m not going to go about this hastily and carelessly.
I’m making plans and calculating risks, checking insurance and consulting with the engineer.

I didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday, K?

 

[CliffordK]

Yes, planning for the “drought” months.


Amazing how everyone keeps pushing for that, but the RR won’t allow access. LOL
They just won’t.
Let’s put that to rest.

Besides, Any kind of “crane/winch rig” would get pulled off the bridge like a toy if a larger piece broke off in the current with cable attached.

Ok, I didn't catch that this was a summer job. Excellent.

I still don't think I'd want to be climbing around on the log jam while working on it, although I've climbed over log jams on the shore that are high and dry. I definitely wouldn't want to be standing on the logs and have someone winching logs out from underneath me.

So that leaves one needing a place with good solid footing to work from. Either up on the bridge, or on some kind of anchored raft.

If you designed your jib crane with a breakaway. So, say you have 500 lbs for your grapple and cable, then you let go if it gets jerked with 1000+ lbs.

I suppose the risk is that if working on the logs you actually knock down the bridge, but that seems unlikely if it has survived several floods.

Ultimately, if all answers point to the safest option and it gets nixed for liability, then I'd simply pass on the job. You will need to have a lot of insurance for the job.