Question for those who live in California

[jyoutz]

None of my fire mitigation attributes factor and I'm in a city of 450,000

1 mile from two fire houses, upgraded high pressure city fire hydrant, fire resistive construction of which engineered roof framing to support the clay tile roof is number one.

The only thing factored is the fire rating for the area...

How a home with wood shake roof, single pane windows and not sprinklered can be rated the same as me is non sense.

My agent told me to avoid preferences or possible race based influence it's all now done by computer modeling with no boots on the ground inspections.

The only thing I could do to lower premiums is raise my deductible to 10k

I know everyone says how important insurance is but few have earthquake coverage and earthquake could be just as costly as fire...

My comment was specifically focused on rural locations.

 

[ultrarunner]

I don't own anything outside a city limit but the impact is the same.

I have no idea what the ideal sought after home owner property would look like today... I know insurance doesn't like older urban nor sprawling rural so what's left... a few upscale gated residential communities in non urban non rural?

I have looked at semi rural in 2012 that checked all the boxes but the current owner was only able to maintain insurance through Lloyd's of London for a modern single family on 5 beautiful acres with only a few ornamental trees.

I know my agent broker friends have no clue anymore either.

Maybe California Fair Plan will be the only game in town?

 

[ericm979]

I think the insurance companies handled the wildfire hazard risk rating wrongly. They should have inspected individual rural properties and then gave homeowners a price (high) for insuring under current high hazard conditions, and then a list of things people could do to get a lower rate (removing trees near house, thinning, brush removal, installing metal roof, etc…). Instead they rely on a generic location risk rating. There are lots of things people can do to considerably reduce wildfire hazards to structures.

When we rebuilt the outside of our house with fire proof siding and more fire resistant decking, I called the insurance agent. He congratulated me and said that the premiums would not change. I asked about the fire clearing I'd done, that didn't make a difference either.

I can understand why they don't want to go down to the individual property level- it's a lot of work- but it was still disappointing that nothing I do would matter to them.

Commercial fire risk models are getting more granular though, so the data they buy should be of higher quality even if it's not down to the individual property.

 

[ultrarunner]

I reroofed a home with permits and the highest rated material which at the time was 27k for a one story ranch home that cost 27k new.

My agent was very pleased and said I will receive a 5% Fire reduction and then nothing.

I circled back and agent was told they no longer do that as building code requires the rating of the roof I had installed.

 

[California]

As I posted 9-28-20. The worst fire year in history. This is why insurors are cancelling. Improving individual fire resistance doesn't make much difference when we have massive fires that advance for miles. When I saw charcoaled pages of Reader's Digest fluttering down I decided it was time to get tf out of there. Shortly after, mass evacuation was ordered for much of the county,

Here an hour north of SF, ash is falling like light snow.

After sunrise this morning, light levels came up gradually but the smoke was so thick it was impossible to find the sun in the sky. Finally at 30 degrees above the horizon, above some of the smoke, it was a vague red blob.

Evacuation areas east of Santa Rosa keep getting expanded as the 'Shady' fire progresses westward. We're 10 miles west of that so no risk but with this smoke we're going to abandon the ranch and go back to our home in the Central Valley where smoke is lighter. Sure glad I got a couple more air purifiers recently. Indoor air isn't bad, just slight throat irritation.

 

[jyoutz]

When we rebuilt the outside of our house with fire proof siding and more fire resistant decking, I called the insurance agent. He congratulated me and said that the premiums would not change. I asked about the fire clearing I'd done, that didn't make a difference either.

I can understand why they don't want to go down to the individual property level- it's a lot of work- but it was still disappointing that nothing I do would matter to them.

Commercial fire risk models are getting more granular though, so the data they buy should be of higher quality even if it's not down to the individual property.

Sadly, they don’t look at individual properties. Although I got a home insurance break when I called my agent and told them that I had installed steel roofing.

 

[jyoutz]

As I posted 9-28-20. The worst fire year in history. This is why insurors are cancelling. Improving individual fire resistance doesn't make much difference when we have massive fires that advance for miles. When I saw charcoaled pages of Reader's Digest fluttering down I decided it was time to get tf out of there. Shortly after, mass evacuation was ordered for much of the county,

I served over 30 years on wildfire incident management teams. I was a situation unit leader and was always out front sizing up wildfire behavior and management strategy. I saw many of the largest wildfires in the U.S. between 1980 and 2012, when I hung up my hard hat. Yes, fuels management and making structures fire resistant does make a difference and often determines whether we can save structures or just write them off. It’s making a structure defensible that makes a difference. If a structure is too dangerous for crews to defend, they will write it off, but defensible situations are often protected from fires.

 

[dfkrug]

Someone in my area talked to their agent who told them that 2/3 of the policies in my zip code (all rural in the mountains) will be non renewed. Agents have the info now.

Is that State Farm, Eric? They seem to have a third of the state's HO policies.

I was recently renewed with State Farm and I used stated amount coverage instead of replacement cost +20%, which is the usual coverage. I also have a $1K deductible and no claims. I am at $1200/y. Much more than that and I will go bare, and put the money towards even more tree cutting.

I did just get a notice that "State Farm uses geographical rating that considers wildfire risk associated with your address. The range of available premium adjustments is currently -41.7% to +376.9%, and your adjustment is +27.7%."

 

[ultrarunner]

I would love to be able to cut down some trees at moms but the city granted protected status to all tress except eucalyptus unless heritage...

Bottom line is pruning without injury ok... damaging or removing even a single tree such as a owner planted back yard walnut tree comes with a heavy cost and that is if done legally with permit, arborist inspection, neighborhood open comment, etc.

Just cutting it down could easily be thousands in fines.

Maybe part of the problem is regulations that impair fire safe practices... like blanket ban of gas powered brush and weed whackers.

 

[dfkrug]

Maybe part of the problem is regulations that impair fire safe practices...

That is one of the biggest problems, for sure.

I found a way to legally use small burn piles in my county, but I have to pay over $200 to the air district as a tax for the "privilege".

Tho cutting up to 10% of large trees (12DBH) is a right on 10+ acre parcels here, you can't sell them without a timber harvest permit or exemption. Tough to clean up downed trees.

 

[ultrarunner]

Can't sell to Big Creek?

Being in the city limits is quite limiting...

Most just wait until the trees fall over because no permit and being able to avoid the associated cost of being pro active.

 

[California]

I served over 30 years on wildfire incident management teams. ... It’s making a structure defensible that makes a difference. ... defensible situations are often protected from fires.

Thank you for your efforts!

The Tubbs fire in Santa Rosa that rained debris on me 10 miles downwind, was way beyond anyone's expectation. 22 deaths, 4,600 homes.

"In less than four nighttime hours, the fire roared from a quiet road in rural Calistoga to the Fountaingrove community in Santa Rosa [16 road miles]. It vaulted the seemingly insurmountable barrier of Highway 101 — six lanes, plus median and shoulders — before it laid waste to the city neighborhood of Coffey Park." ... "Fire scientists have estimated the Tubbs Fire ran 230 feet per minute at its peak."(Santa Rosa Press Democrat - that article is worth reading.).

 

[California]

On the bright side - this traveler says California is his favorite state.

A blogger who's been to every US state at least 3 times picked his 6 favorites— and 4 he wouldn't go out of his way to visit again

Lee Abbamonte picked his favorite and least favorite states based on the diversity of their natural landscapes and the vibrancy of their cities.

www.businessinsider.com

"It has beaches, it has mountains, it has deserts, it has islands, it has great cities, it has good cities," he said. "No matter what you like — I don't care who you are — there is something for you here."

 

[Sigarms]

On the bright side - this traveler says California is his favorite state.

A blogger who's been to every US state at least 3 times picked his 6 favorites— and 4 he wouldn't go out of his way to visit again

Lee Abbamonte picked his favorite and least favorite states based on the diversity of their natural landscapes and the vibrancy of their cities.

www.businessinsider.com

"It has beaches, it has mountains, it has deserts, it has islands, it has great cities, it has good cities," he said. "No matter what you like — I don't care who you are — there is something for you here."

Speaking as a tourist for the first time in Northern California last year, I can't help agree with the writers sentiments (spent time around San Diego about 35 years ago, but never really traveled anywhere exploring the state).

I found myself surprisingly thinking that some of the rural counties in Northern California would actually be a nice to place to live (heck, my wife even agreed).

That said, reality hits as I use to live up around Syracuse and Watertown NY as an adult, and I know there is no way in HE double toothpicks I would ever move back to NY due to my opinion of Albany, being owned by NYC, completely ruining the entire state (and that was over 20 years ago).

Quetsion becomes who owns Sacramento? LOL

Long story short, CA is a GREAT place to visit, but like NY, I wouldn't want to live there full time. Heck, the higher cost of living is pretty apparent for only the two weeks we spent there, let alone housing.

That's not a knock on anyone living in NY or CA, as in some aspects, I admire you putting up with it all. I'm just getting too old where I'd just say "F it, I'm out of here" LMAO

 

[plowhog]

Maybe part of the problem is regulations that impair fire safe practices...

Part of my forested rural property could benefit from reduction in fuels by removing some trees as well as slash and debris. A very obvious thing to do to lower risk of wildfire.

I got an offer from a contractor to do this. With no payment to me, he would do the fire reduction risk work in exchange for the value of wood he removed. Not a big job-- just a small part of my land and not at all like a formal timber harvest.

CalFire learned of this and said: Whoa! You are "deriving value" from the wood even though it is a barter situation. Therefore you need a formal Timber Harvest Plan signed by a Registered Professional Forester.

I checked into getting a formal Timber Harvest Plan. Because of the size of our property, and the existence of our pond and creek(s), the estimated cost was between $20k and $30k. Part of that was to search for possible endangered species such as the yellow legged frog. It would take upward of a year to prepare the plan and receive approval from CalFire. The Registered Professional Forester who could prepare the plan said he is backlogged for at least a year before he could start to prepare such a plan.

So my desire to do fuel reduction was blocked by bureacracy and a turf war between agencies. But if a fire starts on my property it is me who is held liable.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[DarkBlack]

Part of my forested rural property could benefit from reduction in fuels by removing some trees as well as slash and debris. A very obvious thing to do to lower risk of wildfire.

I got an offer from a contractor to do this. With no payment to me, he would do the fire reduction risk work in exchange for the value of wood he removed. Not a big job-- just a small part of my land and not at all like a formal timber harvest.

CalFire learned of this and said: Whoa! You are "deriving value" from the wood even though it is a barter situation. Therefore you need a formal Timber Harvest Plan signed by a Registered Professional Forester.

I checked into getting a formal Timber Harvest Plan. Because of the size of our property, and the existence of our pond and creek(s), the estimated cost was between $20k and $30k. Part of that was to search for possible endangered species such as the yellow legged frog. It would take upward of a year to prepare the plan and receive approval from CalFire. The Registered Professional Forester who could prepare the plan said he is backlogged for at least a year before he could start to prepare such a plan.

So my desire to do fuel reduction was blocked by bureacracy and a turf war between agencies. But if a fire starts on my property it is me who is held liable.

Sad state of affairs.

That’s a BS situation

 

[plowhog]

I think the insurance companies handled the wildfire hazard risk rating wrongly. They should have inspected individual rural properties and then gave homeowners a price (high) for insuring under current high hazard conditions

The entire problem with this is: it is using common sense.

The stupidity part is that it would be illegal in California for the insurers to do what you have written. Illegal. The insurers must ask permission from the Department of Insurance to adjust rates, and those requests are frequently denied.

The woman from the Santa Rosa news article said insurers in CA are paying out 8% more in claims than premiums they collect. Now multiply that by billions in premiums and those are some very large losses.

If your business was forced into a money-losing situation, wouldn't you also flee as the insurers are doing? I don't like the insurers fleeing, but I understand why they are doing it. I blame the State of CA government for strangling these companies over the years which led to them fleeing.

CA is the largest market in the country. Multiple insurers are fleeing. Because the government is forcing them to operate at a loss.

Had the normal market supply and demand factors be allowed to operate, as you have suggested, none of this upheaval would have occurred. Yes, premiums would have adjusted upward-- in line with risks and claims paid.

 

[DarkBlack]

California does a lot of things that are contrary to common sense

 

[jyoutz]

Thank you for your efforts!

The Tubbs fire in Santa Rosa that rained debris on me 10 miles downwind, was way beyond anyone's expectation. 22 deaths, 4,600 homes.

"In less than four nighttime hours, the fire roared from a quiet road in rural Calistoga to the Fountaingrove community in Santa Rosa [16 road miles]. It vaulted the seemingly insurmountable barrier of Highway 101 — six lanes, plus median and shoulders — before it laid waste to the city neighborhood of Coffey Park." ... "Fire scientists have estimated the Tubbs Fire ran 230 feet per minute at its peak."(Santa Rosa Press Democrat - that article is worth reading.).

I’ve spent a month on fires like that, most notably the Rodeo-Chediski fire in 2002 (Arizona) and the siege of 1987 (N. CA). But as I noted, houses that are defensible without undue hazard to crews will be defended, others will not see any defensible actions by firefighters.

 

[ultrarunner]

Part of my forested rural property could benefit from reduction in fuels by removing some trees as well as slash and debris. A very obvious thing to do to lower risk of wildfire.

I got an offer from a contractor to do this. With no payment to me, he would do the fire reduction risk work in exchange for the value of wood he removed. Not a big job-- just a small part of my land and not at all like a formal timber harvest.

CalFire learned of this and said: Whoa! You are "deriving value" from the wood even though it is a barter situation. Therefore you need a formal Timber Harvest Plan signed by a Registered Professional Forester.

I checked into getting a formal Timber Harvest Plan. Because of the size of our property, and the existence of our pond and creek(s), the estimated cost was between $20k and $30k. Part of that was to search for possible endangered species such as the yellow legged frog. It would take upward of a year to prepare the plan and receive approval from CalFire. The Registered Professional Forester who could prepare the plan said he is backlogged for at least a year before he could start to prepare such a plan.

So my desire to do fuel reduction was blocked by bureacracy and a turf war between agencies. But if a fire starts on my property it is me who is held liable.

Sad state of affairs.

Exactly... we as in the system is often our worst enemy.

The wine country fire brought many situations to light.

One of the most publicized is private citizens using bulldozers creating fire breaks as the flames approached

The dangerous work was credited with saving millions of dollars of property but it was not authorized... it impacted critical habitat, there was no plan or review, no filings nor fees paid...

At one time criminal charges were being bandied and even jail time for creating the fire breaks.