Sending Oil Samples For Analysis

[art]

How receptive is the dealer and the manufacturers warranty program to an engine that is running but shows oil specs outside of parameter?

When oil specs are out of parameter they are looked at. Not all applications are the same and there can be problems potentially with dust and dirt as well as temperature of operation. We often take samples when things don't look right and different oils do react differently in different engines. Many manufacturers are concerned about longevity and some only care to get it off warrantee! Not all things are created equal!

 

[Tractorable]

My neighbor and I got into a heated discussion about Toyota recommended 10,000 mile oil changes. I believed that if Toyota recommended this in their owners manual then it must be fine. He believed that it was crazy to go 10,000 miles between oil changes.

Blackstone settled it, it and confirmed that the oil sample I took with 11,100 miles on it was still in very good condition and I could even go longer if I wanted to. Clears up some of the mis-information out there.

 

[5030]

Without reading the entire thread, I gauge all my oil change intervals on my vehicles and farm tractors via spectroscopic analysis either from Blackstone or Caterpillar.

Exceptions are small engines and lawn mowers.

 

[Copperhead]

I rarely do UOA's on my personal stuff, but my commercial stuff gets regular UOA's. I start out going about 3/4 the recommended interval. I work it up a little with each oil change. I watch the UOA's and compare each of them. I track the various patterns of wear metals, viscosity, TBN depletion, etc. These things should change at a uniform rate as one extends the drain intervals. If I see a deviation from the pattern, I track that for a couple of changes. One has to compare multiple samples to get an accurate picture of what is going on. One sample isn't enough.

For my Detroit Diesel Series 60 12.7L pre-EGR for instance, the OEM recommended drain is 15,000 miles / 300 hours. I worked it up to 22,500 miles / 450hrs when I started to see variations from the pattern. The oil is still technically good, but I was getting spikes in wear metals and more viscosity change by going over 22,500 miles / 450 hours. The oil may still test good, but there was evidence of what I call a "food fight" inside the engine by taking the intervals longer as evidenced in the variations from the pattern. So I settled in on 22,500 miles / 450 hours, which is 50% longer than the OEM recommended interval.

How did that work out? The engine now has 1,019,320 miles on it. It is all original except for a water pump. Original turbo, injectors, etc. And it uses only about 1 quart of oil in about 11-12,000 miles at the most. Engine still works every day.

 

[Cat_Driver]

My neighbor and I got into a heated discussion about Toyota recommended 10,000 mile oil changes. I believed that if Toyota recommended this in their owners manual then it must be fine. He believed that it was crazy to go 10,000 miles between oil changes.

Blackstone settled it, it and confirmed that the oil sample I took with 11,100 miles on it was still in very good condition and I could even go longer if I wanted to. Clears up some of the mis-information out there. View attachment 619573

Years ago I bought a VW and the manual said change every 3K miles, while the european manual said change every 10K miles.
Same vehicle, same engine, etc. etc.

No funny business there people!. Buy more oil and waste your mony in the USA.

For the last 50 years I change my oil when I feel like it, not by time, miles, age, anything and I've never ever had an oil related engine problem, and that's with a couple of dozen vehilces and a half dozen commercial trucks in my business.

Longerst engine oil/hydraulic fluid change on a tractor was 15 years NOT A TYPO 80's Kubota M4500.

Longets oil change on a vehicle a 1998 For Exporer - 60, 000 miles. Same filter some added oil as needed.

The Explorer was a dealer buyback and I swore I wouldn't put a dime in service in that vehicle as they were going to give me a replacement any way.

As a kid my first car was a 1969 Camaro RS 350. 60K miles on her before I sold it and I bet I only changed the oild three times that I can remember.

 

[5030]

Years ago I bought a VW and the manual said change every 3K miles, while the european manual said change every 10K miles.
Same vehicle, same engine, etc. etc.

No funny business there people!. Buy more oil and waste your mony in the USA.

For the last 50 years I change my oil when I feel like it, not by time, miles, age, anything and I've never ever had an oil related engine problem, and that's with a couple of dozen vehilces and a half dozen commercial trucks in my business.

Longerst engine oil/hydraulic fluid change on a tractor was 15 years NOT A TYPO 80's Kubota M4500.

Longets oil change on a vehicle a 1998 For Exporer - 60, 000 miles. Same filter some added oil as needed.

The Explorer was a dealer buyback and I swore I wouldn't put a dime in service in that vehicle as they were going to give me a replacement any way.

As a kid my first car was a 1969 Camaro RS 350. 60K miles on her before I sold it and I bet I only changed the oild three times that I can remember.

You must be one of those people that when you pull the drain plug, chunks come out.....:mur:

 

[newbury]

Bumping thread mainly because I'm wondering if there are better UOA sites than Blackstone.
I used Blackstone for my VW TDI, ended up being useless to me because VW bought the car back at about 70K.

I've used Blackstone for my F350. Everybody was recommending changes at 3 or 5 K. That's about 4 gallons of oil, plus filter, plus labor and disposal. Blackstone said I was good to go at my oil change at about 150K after running the oil/filter for about 20K (and testing every 5k). Figure I saved myself at least 3 oil/filter changes.

Now I've a Ford Escape due it's first oil change and I want to set a baseline.

So is Blackstone still the best bang for the buck for a UOA?

 

[5030]

Caterpillar Diesel offers a analysis service much like Blackstone, prepaid mailers and all but I still use Blackstone anyway. In fact I just sent off samples from 2 of my tractors. On my F350 7.3, I still change at at 6k and use Nano Borate additive. Had the valve covers off last year and she's as clean underneath as when new.

 

[shooterdon]

Blackstone Labaratories Oil Analysis Kit - Engine & Transmission Oil Testing - PartsVu
Cost $28

An oil change on my tractor takes less than 2 gallons. I bought this stuff for $35:
Amazon.com: Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend 1?W-3? Diesel Engine Oil (1-Gallon, Single Pack): Automotive

The LS manual calls for an oil change every 300 hours. I think that is too long, so I will likely change it at 150-200 hours or so...likely just before or after winter depending on the hours on the clock. I am a hobby user, and have put on 135 hours in the last 18 months. .

Spending $28 to extend oil change intervals does not make a lot of sense. I suppose I could go 300 hours and follow the recommended interval but $50 for an oil and filter change every 12-24 months seems like cheap insurance on a $30k+ investment.

Cannot believe anyone would go 15 years without an oil change on a tractor unless it just sits there and is hardly ever used. 60k miles on a gas vehicle is not smart IMHO. My car went 300k miles...I used full synthetic every 10k miles. It ran great but got totaled. One reason I will pay a bit more for a used vehicle that has maintenance records.

 

[5030]

I don't use an oil analysis to extend oil changes, I use them to determine issues that may be coming up like day a leaking head gasket or bearing failure internally. While Blackstone might tell me my TBN numbers are still good and I can extend, I don't. Oil is cheap, repairs are not.

 

[crazyal]

For a couple of years I worked for a company that did non destructive testing. The owner was ex-air force and was trained to inspect jet engines. When he got out of the service he started his own business using those skills. A small part of it was oil analysis. I didn't do it that often but on occasion I would test samples if we didn't have a lot of other work. It's interesting at first but does get boring. My personal opinion is to only do it if you have a question. If your engine is making an unusual noise or if you aren't sure that the schedule you are following is right for the equipment. I would also caution about generalizing. For example just because you got 30k miles out of one oil change that doesn't mean you can do that for the rest of the life of the engine.

He never really pushed the oil testing and I don't think he even does it now. I always felt like with a little hard work it could have been made into a viable business for someone who didn't have a college degree. He had the testing equipment set up in his basement and a huge mailbox. The furthest one would need to travel was the mailbox (unless someone paid for rush service). You could set your own hours. Back when I did it (20 years ago) the internet wasn't optimized like it is now. Back then setting up a system where customers data would be posted on-line seamed like a great way to migrate to. One thing that seamed useful to me would be trends. If you got the oil sampled on a regular basis you could compare it over the years to see how it's wearing.

 

[5030]

If the engine is making unusual noises, it's most likely too late for an oil analysis anyway. Time to tear it down and determine what the noise is.... I do oil analysis because I depend on my tractors to make a living (farm) so I need to know about impending failures and address them before it gets overly expensive.

 

[cetrac29]

There is a channel on YouTube called Redneck Ed and he has two videos on this topic. The first is titled "Tractor Hydraulic Fluid Lab Test Comparisons" which is all about virgin samples for a baseline. The next is titled "Change hydraulic fluid annually or ever 250 hours?" which is after a small amount of run time on Permatran 821XL. He used Blackstone labs in his testing.

 

[5030]

Been using the Fort Wayne Blackstone Labs for years now.

 

[stompybritches]

Been using the Fort Wayne Blackstone Labs for years now.

I know this is an old thread but how 'general' are the Blackstone reports? I'm thinking to send my oil in on my work truck for particulate count etc, high miler and at over 200k it's probably a little late to switch horses but figure there could be some useful info to make adjustments before it craps out on me.

 

[mrmikey]

I was at a oil testing course put on by CAT years ago when I was working. Their main thought was testing it from day one so you'd have a baseline and notice any changes to different wear metal counts, aluminum, steel etc. Also to pickup any microscopic counts of contaminants such as silicon from a leaking intake system or water/antifreeze or similar.
I have mine tested every oil change from day one when I bought my 2019 Ram with no problems.....knock on wood .

 

[John0829]

I can say I am happy with Blackstone, I have had all of mine (old and new) tested. Takes a couple of samples to establish a particular machines baseline but Blackstone also has industry standards and customer records from other owners to compare against so even with an old machine they can give you a good idea on how the internals are doing. I do recommend them.

 

[5030]

I know this is an old thread but how 'general' are the Blackstone reports? I'm thinking to send my oil in on my work truck for particulate count etc, high miler and at over 200k it's probably a little late to switch horses but figure there could be some useful info to make adjustments before it craps out on me.

You can custom tailor their report to fit your criteria, all you have to do is ask them.

 

[gsganzer]

That's some good information. I'm thinking of doing it to my daughters truck, a 2017 Ram diesel with 158K miles, before I decide on fixing a front crank seal. I hate to keep throwing money at that truck, without some idea if the next major problem is just around the corner.

Without historical oil analysis data on that engine, I was under the impression I would do a test early in the oil life and then at the end of the oil life for comparison.

But it makes sense that Blackstone would have a database of engine types and could compare a single sample to industry norms to see if your engine is an outlier.

 

[Paystar]

I am thinking about sending motor oil and hydraulic fluid to a lab next time I service the tractor. I am interested to know if there are wear metals in the samples. The trouble is, what is normal? Would anybresults be able to tell me if components are wearing, or if the metals are from a pump? I send samples from the airplane but the lab knows what is indicated by certain metals. Does anybody do this, and do you have a lab recommendation?

I see you are in the U.S., but a good lab should be able to help you. I use Toromont Cat to do mine, and they gave me a book that deciphers everything for you so you can learn what you are looking at. They will also alert you when they see a problem and explain to you what it is.