Generac or Koehler whole house generator?

[Fastowl]

I've written it before, but I think it bears repeating for anyone thinking of natural gas powered generators, but especially for Texans.

Texas has had more than a few ice and snow storms that have frozen natural gas compressors. So, when the need natural gas is the greatest for heat and for backup, there is a likelihood that natural gas won't be available. From the reports that I have been reading, the gas suppliers are dragging their feet about the necessary upgrades.

Propane and diesel are relatively easy to stockpile, and as the "fuel overseer" you know what you have. I think that natural gas is a pig in a poke as far as being a backup energy source. You might have it, you might not.

All the best,

Peter

During all of the outages in Texas no deliveries for home use were interupted to the best of my knowledge. Folks had problems getting heat in their homes due to power failures due to gas supplies not being delivered to power generators. No power at the house, blowers and controls won't run. If you generate your own power that issue is moot. The power outages were also due to poor performance from solar and wind as well. Since the freeze of 2022 a number of things have been done to improve natural gas delivery in Texas. For example many of the gas processing plants/compressor stations in west Texas had not been designated as critical infrastructure and when the rolling blackouts came the facilities were cut off. This just made the problem worse. There have been a number of other changes that have been made to improve reliability of the natural gas supplies in Texas. After being in the natyural gas business for nearly 50 year I believe your concerns are way overblown as well as overstated.

 

[jyoutz]

During all of the outages in Texas no deliveries for home use were interupted to the best of my knowledge. Folks had problems getting heat in their homes due to power failures due to gas supplies not being delivered to power generators. No power at the house, blowers and controls won't run. If you generate your own power that issue is moot. The power outages were also due to poor performance from solar and wind as well. Since the freeze of 2022 a number of things have been done to improve natural gas delivery in Texas. For example many of the gas processing plants/compressor stations in west Texas had not been designated as critical infrastructure and when the rolling blackouts came the facilities were cut off. This just made the problem worse. There have been a number of other changes that have been made to improve reliability of the natural gas supplies in Texas. After being in the natyural gas business for nearly 50 year I believe your concerns are way overblown as well as overstated.

Why is it that natural gas plants, solar, and wind energy works just fine in other nearby states where we get much colder weather every winter than Texas?

 

[duffer]

In 2023 I took a job with Generac. The QC now, vs 5-10 years ago is not even remotely close to acceptable. In the plant I worked at, there were 100's (and I'm not exaggerating) of defective units stacked up in the aisles of the warehouse for the entire time I worked there. You couldn't go thru those 12' aisles except on foot.

One day a "QC" control gal came by and asked where was putting today's production. (I was a fork lift operator transporting finished product to the warehouse). It turns out that assembly line put the wrong stators in the wrong units for the first several hours of the shift. QC didn't catch it at that point on the line, or any other point of the assembly line. Only after it was boxed up, shrunk wrapped and ready to ship out did they discover the faux-pas. The defective units sat there for weeks. Not sure if they ever fixed them.

I've worked for numerous companies in my life, and I've never seen a company that didn't try to fix their mistakes, or to get better...until this. They also had major "bugs" in their software. I'd have to scan the same Serial# 7 times in order for it to be accepted into the system.

Frustration got so bad, I moved on.

 

[DarkBlack]

ICE engines don't... unless you have strict RPM requirements.
Here's another similar table straight out of a generator's spec sheet:
View attachment 898631
On this one, going from 50% load to 100% (ie, an increase of 100% load) takes 50% more fuel. Granted it's not as bad as the previous table, but look at the rest of the jumps.

"Exercise" is basically a no-load run, and it still takes 1/4 of the full load fuel requirement.
Basically like if I put my car in neutral and push the gas down until the engine's running at 3600RPM.

Low generator loads will always be inefficient. At a 0% load, you have a O% efficiency.
“strict rpm requirements” is irrelevant for these tables as the machine is running the same fixed speed at both a 50% load and 100% load measurement points.

This chart shows a 61% increase using NG, from 50% to 100% load. Reasonable numbers

Again, the first 10kw chart has a mistake in the numbers I circled.
I don’t understand how you don’t see it.
These erroneous measurements, or misprinted numbers happens all the time in published specifications, be it owners manuals, or online articles. No guessing of technical reasons to explain the numbers. Simply a case for Occam’s razor.

 

[RSKY]

Northern Tool Catalog arrived in the mail yesterday, and the first dozen pages in the catalog are generators. There is a section of Generac generators that seem to be a lot lower in cost then what Torvy said he was quoted for where I live in Tyler.

24kw with 200 amp transfer switch is on sale right now for $5,847.30

https://www.northerntool.com/products/generac-guardian-series-home-standby-generator-24kw-lp-21kw-ng-200-amp-transfer-switch-aluminum-enclosure-model-7210-102681

I have Natural Gas to my Mom's house, but I haven't ran it to my house yet. I'm adding on a 3 car garage and I want the meter set at the end of my garage. Hopefully I'll get that all done over the winter, but it's proven harder to get to then I thought possible with all my other "must do" projects.

The Natural Gas meter is for a 1 inch line. Does anybody know how big of a generator I can run off of a 1 inch Natural Gas line? Is that a lot of Natural Gas, or will I be limited in what size generator I can run? We will also have a Natural Gas range for cooking, but there isn't any plan to have Natural Gas for laundry or the water heater. The HVAC is currently electric for heat, and we never use it since we heat with wood and electric heat is stupid expensive. When we replace the HVAC system, it might become Natural Gas for heat, but I'm not sure on that.

I know this is not what you are asking about but our total utility bill dropped substantially when we changed from an electric water heater to a natural gas fueled one. Plus this gas one has lasted twice as long as any electric we ever had. And you can actually drop down a size and still never run out of water. Just wish we had the gas one when the daughters were still living here. With the electric water heater I always took my shower last of the four of us on Sunday mornings and had to rinse with cold water.

RSKY

 

[ponytug]

During all of the outages in Texas no deliveries for home use were interupted to the best of my knowledge. Folks had problems getting heat in their homes due to power failures due to gas supplies not being delivered to power generators. No power at the house, blowers and controls won't run. If you generate your own power that issue is moot. The power outages were also due to poor performance from solar and wind as well. Since the freeze of 2022 a number of things have been done to improve natural gas delivery in Texas. For example many of the gas processing plants/compressor stations in west Texas had not been designated as critical infrastructure and when the rolling blackouts came the facilities were cut off. This just made the problem worse. There have been a number of other changes that have been made to improve reliability of the natural gas supplies in Texas. After being in the natyural gas business for nearly 50 year I believe your concerns are way overblown as well as overstated.

I would love to see reports on that. My understanding, as I wrote, is different.

Yes, there were major power losses due to frozen natural gas pipelines upstream due to the tendency in Texas to transfer wet vapor gas in pipelines that were insufficiently insulated, but the same pipelines also fed residential service, and if one loses gas flow upstream, where does it come from? Texas, relatively speaking, stores very little natural gas, unlike many other locations.

Texas largely relies on natural gas for power. It wasn’t ready for the extreme cold.

Texas largely relies on natural gas — especially during times of high demand — to power the state. Experts say natural gas infrastructure, from pumping it out of the ground to the plants in city centers, was unprepared for the plunging temperatures brought by the winter storm.

www.texastribune.org

Texas Deep Freeze Three Years On. What Has Changed?

This is a public post from my new Substack, The Gray Rhino Wrangler. Public posts will be shared here with a delay.

www.linkedin.com

The 2021 Texas Freeze & Commercial Gas Pipelines

What really caused the Texas freeze? There’s still a lot to learn, but read on for more information. As always, choose Wyler Industrial for all your needs.

www.wylerindustrial.com

2021 Texas power crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Still, my general point is the same, I was suggesting that it is worthwhile thinking about what might interrupt your energy source(s) during a disruption, be it an earthquake, storm, fire, freeze event, or an overheating event. I.e. have a good plan B. Sometimes, a good plan B is leaving.

If natural gas is reliable enough in your area, go for it.

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

On large generators used at hospitals that i worked on, the NEVER used nat gas, it was diesel or nothing. They did not want to rely on nat gas system. They had contracts to ensure diesel delivery.

 

[sandman2234]

With my schedule, a lot of things get put off. A generator is one...
However, my observations around hurricanes devastated areas is a little larger than most people. I am used to seeing several weeks of no power being the norm and whole house generators standing idle because the propane delivery trucks can't get out to make the deliveries or are so far behind that it seems they will never get caught up! People using portable gasoline generators driving further and further to find sources for gas. A half dozen 5gal cans is the minimum, some people with twice or 3 times that is more likely. Last time we were without power due to a hurricane, a week later I snapped a picture of the pumps down the street. No gas, but for some reason they still sold diesel, so I filled up my pickup and went back home. Daughter wanted coffee, so we hooked a 2000 watt inverter to the pickup and made coffee with it. That isn't a plug it in the cigarette lighter inverter, had to be hardwired in.
Another reason for my choices of fuel will be the tractor trailer sitting in the driveway, which is a reserve for emergencies to the tune of about 200 gallons. Plus the APU onboard it can be used to power a single fridge or freezer (above the small one in the truck). I think the APU consumption is about a gallon and a half in 8 hours. Supposedly less than the truck engine drinks in one hour.
David from jax

 

[5030]

On large generators used at hospitals that i worked on, the NEVER used nat gas, it was diesel or nothing. They did not want to rely on nat gas system. They had contracts to ensure diesel delivery.

Interesting. The 2 I own, one is propane fired and the other is diesel. Both Generacs. Both are over 20 years old and neither have experienced any issues. One thing I don't worry about is fuel for either of them. I have 3 500 gallon owned propane bottles that I fill during warm weather when the PPG is low. Just topped off all 3 at $1.40 per gallon and my diesel Generac (John Deere powered) has it own built in 100 gallon base tank plus it's plumbed into my 500 gallon diesel bulk tank I fill my tractors from and I keep it at least 3/4 full all the time anyway so if there was ever an issue with fuel delivery, I could run for weeks on end on my fuel storage. Last thing I worry about is running out of fuel to power the units and push comes to shove, we have a solid fuel stove in the house as well and plenty of seasoned firewood as well.

 

[newbury]

Personal safety - water, power, food, etc. require a stable solution.
Relying on any one form of fuel to provide electricity to get through a time of need is not the way to go unless it's foolproof.
A diesel generator with a 10,000 gallon tank would be ideal
I've a 10Kw Winco PTO generator and diesel tractors to run it.
I've two "dual fuel" (LPG & RUG) generators.
I'm trying to build up some solar (only 2 panels now)
And I've a woodstove and fireplaces with plenty of available wood.
Plus I've mentioned the DeWalt power station which use my already charged batteries.
None of these are a "total" solution, but so far they have given me piece of mind, and a little electricity.