Propane tankless water heater

[WinterDeere]

I mentioned this in another thread recently, so apologies to those who already know this one. England has a bad reputation for electrical and plumbing systems, and it's well-deserved, they really love holding onto old hardware and conventions. When staying in a 1000 year old hotel in Stratford Upon Avon, I switched rooms mid-week, from one that took roughly 4 minutes to receive hot water, to another that took over 8 minutes.

That may not sound nearly as absurd as it feels, until you're the one standing there for roughly 480 seconds, waiting for hot water. Knowing how things are over there, I wasn't even alarmed when I had no hot water for the first several minutes, but did call down to the front desk at the 5 minute mark. They told me, "give it another 3 minutes, it will get there!"

Knowing how much temperature drop we see in our own house, from basement up to 3rd floor, I can't imagine how screaming-hot they must run their boilers, to get hot water delivered from the tap over that sort of time and distance.

 

[WinterDeere]

I've actually been toying with the idea of a tankless water heater for our 3rd floor (4th, if you count basement) bathroom. The prior owners installed a 40 or 50 gallon traditional electric water heater in the unheated attic space adjacent to that bathroom, and it works fine, but will eventually leak. It's also a very old house (that wing was added 1775), with vintage plaster we'd like to not ruin, and it's a massive amount of weight sitting up there.

But delivering power to it, and freeze protection, are both concerns. The tank heater conducts enough constant heat out thru the plumbing, that we've never had issues with freezing pipes, even below 0F. Delivering propane up there would be possible, as the regulator set is just outside this bathroom, albeit 50 feet below. I think the sub-panel in that room is 100 amps, but I need to check current loading to see what sort of excess capacity we have, there.

If the electric models had freeze protection, that might be the path of least resistance, but I really haven't looked into how well that works. The bathroom sat unused for most of the last 10 years, but now one of my kids is using it, so water usage up there is just 2x per day.

 

[Sigarms]

And that is with a tankless WITH or WITHOUT a recirc pump?

With of course.

Please note, I said warm water, not hot water.

My only point was that I believe a lot of people are on well and septic. When power goes out, you won't have hot anything unless you have a generator. The question then becomes how long will your generator run if running a full load if you're on LP.

 

[WinterDeere]

My only point was that I believe a lot of people are on well and septic. When power goes out, you won't have hot anything unless you have a generator. The question then becomes how long will your generator run if running a full load if you're on LP.

As one of the hold-outs with an oil-fired boiler in our basement, people ask why I don't convert to heat pump... until there's a power outage. I think it takes all of 3-4 amps at 120V, to run the boiler, circulator pump, and zone valves.

 

[Sigarms]

As one of the hold-outs with an oil-fired boiler in our basement, people ask why I don't convert to heat pump... until there's a power outage. I think it takes all of 3-4 amps at 120V, to run the boiler, circulator pump, and zone valves.

I installed a Burnham V7 oil boiler for my dad back in 92 up in Pa. When I was helping him sell the house in 2018, the cast iron heat exchanger had a pin hole leak (actually a issue with that series I found out later), I had the realtor replace it with a EFM oil boiler (price hard to beat even if I tried to do it traveling 480 miles away).

BEST heat in the world IMO comes from a boiler IMO

When my dad moved in with us in the basement, he had to keep the thermostat set to 80 degrees pretty much year round to make it feel like 72F with his old boiler in his home LOL

Deal with anyone over the age of 60 who is used to oil heat with a oil furnace, worst case, just dual fuel it with a heat pump and leave the oil furnace...

 

[ponytug]

I've actually been toying with the idea of a tankless water heater for our 3rd floor (4th, if you count basement) bathroom. The prior owners installed a 40 or 50 gallon traditional electric water heater in the unheated attic space adjacent to that bathroom, and it works fine, but will eventually leak. It's also a very old house (that wing was added 1775), with vintage plaster we'd like to not ruin, and it's a massive amount of weight sitting up there.

But delivering power to it, and freeze protection, are both concerns. The tank heater conducts enough constant heat out thru the plumbing, that we've never had issues with freezing pipes, even below 0F. Delivering propane up there would be possible, as the regulator set is just outside this bathroom, albeit 50 feet below. I think the sub-panel in that room is 100 amps, but I need to check current loading to see what sort of excess capacity we have, there.

If the electric models had freeze protection, that might be the path of least resistance, but I really haven't looked into how well that works. The bathroom sat unused for most of the last 10 years, but now one of my kids is using it, so water usage up there is just 2x per day.

For the amount of hot water usage that you describe, I would personally pull the existing 4th floor hot water heater and remove it. That just seems like an accident waiting to happen at a risk to reward ratio that seems pretty high risk. If hot water is an issue, I would add an on demand recirculating pump like the one @HawkinsHollow posted above.

It's your home, but I like vintage plaster myself. Despite being a fan, I think that it is a pain to install/reinstall in this day and age, and I would personally hate to have to do it over a water tank leak high in a house.

All the best,

Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

When my dad moved in with us in the basement, he had to keep the thermostat set to 80 degrees pretty much year round to make it feel like 72F with his old boiler in his home LOL

yes, I've noticed this. We find the same relative comfort at 70F with the baseboards going, as 76F when heating solely with wood stoves. I think it has to do with the fact that hydronic baseboard is typically routed along all exterior walls, creating a warm blanket of air that somewhat compensates for both radiation and convection cold exterior walls.

For the amount of hot water usage that you describe, I would personally pull the existing 4th floor hot water heater and remove it.

I'll have to look at that, as I know even tankless systems have a high probability of failing and leaking, at some point. It's weird that they ran both cold and hot from the basement boiler room to our 3rd floor kitchenette, but then pulled only cold up to the bathroom on the same floor. I'm not sure why, but you can imagine that getting another pipe run from the basement in the 1890's addition into the 3rd floor of the 1770's addition, is no simple feat.

For now, I have a flood sensor installed in the small pan the original installer placed under the water heater, and that sensor is tied into our home automation. If it detects any water in the pan, it will trip our motorized whole-house valve to close. That water heater, being the highest point in the system, should have no additional water pushing through it after that valve closes, so hopefully that will prevent disaster.

 

[Sigarms]

yes, I've noticed this. We find the same relative comfort at 70F with the baseboards going, as 76F when heating solely with wood stoves. I think it has to do with the fact that hydronic baseboard is typically routed along all exterior walls, creating a warm blanket of air that somewhat compensates for both radiation and convection cold exterior walls.

When I drove up to my dads house myself to go over everything that needed to be done, I got up there sometime around the colder months late at night leaving after work in NC.

The good old T-86 dial tstat was set to 62, needed to warm the place up, so I set it to 72F.

Went to bed almost right after that, and by the time I hit the bed, the bedroom was nice and warm.

Been a long time since I had been there in the colder months, and I remember laying there thinking on how I forgot how great boiler heat was.

 

[jyoutz]

Our tankless unit has a filter on it that is supposed to last two years. It catches sediments and minerals that would build up in the unit.

 

[Sigarms]

Our tankless unit has a filter on it that is supposed to last two years. It catches sediments and minerals that would build up in the unit.

Play it safe, clean the heat exchanger every year with vinegar if you're on a well system