Electricity Price Increases

[Larry Caldwell]

What tax breaks?

I've been asking my question for years yet most answers are actually the same expense writeoffs which every other business gets.

You have never heard of an oil depletion allowance? It allows the oil companies to deduct the value of the oil they pump from their bottom line.

 

[ponytug]

Around here, transmission lines are copper clad steel above ground, aluminum underground. I ran across an article years ago that one of my college buddies, John Stovall, was Engineer In Charge of the "first commercial superconducting power line." If anybody could do it, John was the guy. He was scary smart. That was years ago and nothing ever came of it, so that technology is still waiting in the wings. Superconducting DC transmission lines would make wind power practical.

Redesigning the grid for distributed generation will certainly be expensive. I just saw an article that Switzerland (?) is experimenting with lining the space between rails with solar panels. Uploading the power to the rail lines would be convenient, but trains don't use that much power. I doubt rail lines could handle megawatts, particularly at their low voltages.

There's been a superconducting feeder in operation at Fermi labs for forty five years or so, but I think that the trick isn't the lines, it is finding a superconducting material that doesn't need to be at -452F.

View attachment 4007319
Copper may weigh more, but that difference becomes less when you need twice or more aluminum to provide the same amount of power.

The math in the prior post was for equal amperage, so apples to apples. I think that the larger diameter of the aluminum is a little misleading due to the lower density, which means a larger diameter to get enough material to conduct the same current with the same resistance.

All the best,

Peter

 

[rontaki]

As for using your EV or house batteries to feed the grid in times of high demand/low supply, the additional charge/discharge cycles will wear them out faster. Maybe the compensation from the utility company will offset the cost of replacing the batteries, in the case of an older EV they might not be worth replacing. Win for the EV makers...

 

[California]

As for using your EV or house batteries to feed the grid in times of high demand/low supply, the additional charge/discharge cycles will wear them out faster. Maybe the compensation from the utility company will offset the cost of replacing the batteries, in the case of an older EV they might not be worth replacing. Win for the EV makers...

Aren't a lot of EV's leased? So the guy who leased it would be thinking about his net electricity cost, rather than the car's battery life.

Maybe EV's will be required to log this discharge along with odometer readings, for a subsequent owner to understand what he is buying.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I expect grid batteries to be a different chemistry than EV batteries. There are cheaper and more durable batteries not used for EVs because of weight and energy density considerations. A substation could just add an acre.

 

[Jstpssng]

You have never heard of an oil depletion allowance? It allows the oil companies to deduct the value of the oil they pump from their bottom line.

I had to think about this for a while. (I also deleted a previous reply.)
If you bought a fully stocked grocery store you wouldn't declare all revenue from sales as profit. Rather, you would deduct the estimated cost of the goods you sold. Depletions work the same way. They are extracting oil, gas or other minerals which they paid for, and can't be expected to pay taxes on the money twice. It would be like buying a car, fixing it up, then selling it and paying taxes on the full sale price.

 

[ponytug]

I expect grid batteries to be a different chemistry than EV batteries. There are cheaper and more durable batteries not used for EVs because of weight and energy density considerations. A substation could just add an acre.

It depends a lot. Older grid batteries were, and are, using lithium ion batteries (e.g. Tesla), just like phones and laptops. Newer grid scale batteries are more commonly lithium iron phosphate batteries, also used now in many EVs, e.g. BYD, Tesla, and a few others.

There are other battery chemistries around, but not in common use, at least not yet. E.g. Flow batteries, sulfur, solid state, sodium batteries. At the moment, it feels like battery chemistries are a bit of Baskin-Robbins, with lots of flavors, but not many rolled out, as not many types have broken through to the proven reliability (MTBF) levels needed, nor the decay rate, nor the safety (e.g. not bursting into flames), nor the cost/MWh. There are lots of companies, and lots of people, trying to move the needle at the moment. In my opinion, it is one thing to get a battery chemistry to work on a bench, and something very different to get MTBF over 40,000 hours over MWh of discharge. I worked for a bit for a company that had a battery recall of their batteries that ran to north of nine million batteries, all caused by a glitch in the manufacturing line. I have no idea what the final cost was to the company.

Stay tuned: these are interesting times.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

Yes, it was that foundry. I always enjoyed seeing their products around the area, rather like seeing the Neenah foundry products.

All the best,

Peter

We have the Neenah stuff all over this area.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

There's been a superconducting feeder in operation at Fermi labs for forty five years or so, but I think that the trick isn't the lines, it is finding a superconducting material that doesn't need to be at -452F.

The math in the prior post was for equal amperage, so apples to apples. I think that the larger diameter of the aluminum is a little misleading due to the lower density, which means a larger diameter to get enough material to conduct the same current with the same resistance.

All the best,

Peter

Agreed, as aluminum conductors weigh approximately 3 times less for the same conductor size vs copper.
For aluminum needing to be sized larger to have the same ampacity as a copper conductor the weight of the Al conductor is still around half the weight of Cu.
Half the weight factors into installation being easier to install and lower transportation cost.

 

[ultrarunner]

Almost as if prepping the public to expect it…

MIT professor makes startling prediction about the future of US energy prices — here's what you need to know
MIT professor makes startling prediction about the future of US energy prices — here's what you need to know