120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results

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   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #111  
A novice with a 240v welder vs 3/8" plate at least has a fighting chance, a newbie with a 120v welder vs 3/8" plate has NO chance. I think that is the point that was trying to be made from the beginning.

That be me. Hence, the reason I've been following these threads.

I've been welding my land grader with 3/8" thick angle to 3/8" plate; well outside the parameters for my Lincoln SP-175 Plus. I *believe* 5/16" is the heaviest, but that's with .035 flux wire and I'm using .030 with C25, so the max for that is 1/4".

Having said that, what is the risk with a land grader? Worst case, it falls apart while I'm grading my one mile gravel road and I have to take it back to the shop with it chained to the FEL. Anyone see any other risks that I'm not seeing here?

Good discussion, thanks!
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #112  
No one said anything about going slowly. The idea is to move more quickly putting more "punch" into the metal to get it to fuse but in a smaller area. A larger welder can do this. Let me try to put it in laymans words. I'm no engineer...

But try to think of this scenario for a minute, and then I'll try to bring it together. Metal disappates heat right? You know that if you ever handled a frying pan. Think of which frying pan you prefer? Which one heats up faster? Which one cools down slower? Each metal conducts heat at a different rate. Cast iron, and stainless conduct it much slower and holds it longer. In welding that is something you have to think about in regards to how much amperage (heat) will be required to weld it. Now think of which burner you want to put the skillet on? Do you want to be there all day? Are you going to but a 10" cast iron skillet on a 4 inch burner set to medium low heat to fry chicken? No, you are going to get at least the 8" turn up the heat to high to get the oil up to temp as fast as you can. Can you fry chicken on a 4" burner with a 10 inch cast iron frying pan? Yes, if you like greasy chicken and it will cook slowly and you'll have to keep it on screaming red high just to keep up with the heat being drawn away by the cooling ability of the metal. And you'll have a hot spot and all sorts of issues as the chicken on the outside won't cook well...while the middle chicken is scorching. But what do you do with the 8" burner? You can turn it down to med high or even medium and it won't even be glowing good and it will still fry that chicken and it will be light, crispy and fast cooking if you do it right.

Now put that idea into welding. The larger mig is the larger burner. The smaller mig is the itty bitty 4" burner screaming on high. The metal is of course the skillet. A larger MIG likely has more inductance capability too, which is another issue which helps the puddle wet in better. The metal will draw away the heat from the weld at a constant rate. A larger MIG can come in with higher voltage and amperage and deposit a clean fast bead with a fluid puddle without having to lay down a ton of metal to build the heat because it can easily overcome the metal's ability to draw the heat away. Building extra heat is not always a good thing. It distorts and stresses metal. Just like when I was welding with the 140E. I had to go slower so the puddle would stay fluid enough to build enough heat to wash the metal in somewhat. Each pass the metal built heat, and the next weld went a little more fluid than the other one as the heat built up. But IF I was to spray arc it for instance, I am guessing I could have welded a single thin pass before the temperature on the edges of the plate reached half the temperature of the plate did with a single pass of the little 140E.

Not sure if this is making sense...but to sum it up...It has to do with the welder's ability to overcome the heat dissipation rate to an extent. The area right at the puddle will melt and stay fluid longer.

One of the other reasons you don't want to make a thicker puddle (and making a cold lapped weld which appears perfect on the surface but does not bond at the root) is that the puddle cooling rate can be too rapid especially with a smaller MIG. If the puddle does not stay fluid long enough, the silicates, other contaminates, oxides, and gas bubbles which are present in every weld get trapped, creating a porous weld. This effect is magnified if welding on rusty/painted metal, or making a second pass on top of a previous pass with signs of surface contamination like slag etc.

A larger MIG will keep the puddle fluid long enough for the "bad stuff" to float to the surface, but keep the metal from overheating at the same time.

Now with all that said, someone is going to disagree and tell me you can take down an angry elephant with a BB gun.

1) I want some of that fried chicken.

2) I think I get the burner/cooking analogy. I'd use shrimp as an even better analogy. Hot pan and powerful burner equals quickly and nicely sauteed shrimp. Too small a burner (or too much shrimp) equals soggy steamed shrimp.

3) It does seem to come down to the available amps/power rather than voltage though as both 120v and 240v welders actually weld at 17-20volts or so. As someone explained earlier, 120 requires much heavier wiring than 240 for equivalent power transmission so is simply impractical, especially in a world where industrial settings have easy access to 240v and above.

4) Given #3, it still seems to me that an autosensing dual voltage welder should be able to get comparable results with high amperage 120v. Does the dual voltage welder really care whether it gets 30amps of 120 or 15 amps of 240????
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #113  
No one said anything about going slowly. The idea is to move more quickly putting more "punch" into the metal to get it to fuse but in a smaller area. A larger welder can do this. Let me try to put it in laymans words. I'm no engineer...

But try to think of this scenario for a minute, and then I'll try to bring it together. Metal disappates heat right? You know that if you ever handled a frying pan. Think of which frying pan you prefer? Which one heats up faster? Which one cools down slower? Each metal conducts heat at a different rate. Cast iron, and stainless conduct it much slower and holds it longer. In welding that is something you have to think about in regards to how much amperage (heat) will be required to weld it. Now think of which burner you want to put the skillet on? Do you want to be there all day? Are you going to but a 10" cast iron skillet on a 4 inch burner set to medium low heat to fry chicken? No, you are going to get at least the 8" turn up the heat to high to get the oil up to temp as fast as you can. Can you fry chicken on a 4" burner with a 10 inch cast iron frying pan? Yes, if you like greasy chicken and it will cook slowly and you'll have to keep it on screaming red high just to keep up with the heat being drawn away by the cooling ability of the metal. And you'll have a hot spot and all sorts of issues as the chicken on the outside won't cook well...while the middle chicken is scorching. But what do you do with the 8" burner? You can turn it down to med high or even medium and it won't even be glowing good and it will still fry that chicken and it will be light, crispy and fast cooking if you do it right.

Now put that idea into welding. The larger mig is the larger burner. The smaller mig is the itty bitty 4" burner screaming on high. The metal is of course the skillet. A larger MIG likely has more inductance capability too, which is another issue which helps the puddle wet in better. The metal will draw away the heat from the weld at a constant rate. A larger MIG can come in with higher voltage and amperage and deposit a clean fast bead with a fluid puddle without having to lay down a ton of metal to build the heat because it can easily overcome the metal's ability to draw the heat away. Building extra heat is not always a good thing. It distorts and stresses metal. Just like when I was welding with the 140E. I had to go slower so the puddle would stay fluid enough to build enough heat to wash the metal in somewhat. Each pass the metal built heat, and the next weld went a little more fluid than the other one as the heat built up. But IF I was to spray arc it for instance, I am guessing I could have welded a single thin pass before the temperature on the edges of the plate reached half the temperature of the plate did with a single pass of the little 140E.

Not sure if this is making sense...but to sum it up...It has to do with the welder's ability to overcome the heat dissipation rate to an extent. The area right at the puddle will melt and stay fluid longer.

One of the other reasons you don't want to make a thicker puddle (and making a cold lapped weld which appears perfect on the surface but does not bond at the root) is that the puddle cooling rate can be too rapid especially with a smaller MIG. If the puddle does not stay fluid long enough, the silicates, other contaminates, oxides, and gas bubbles which are present in every weld get trapped, creating a porous weld. This effect is magnified if welding on rusty/painted metal, or making a second pass on top of a previous pass with signs of surface contamination like slag etc.

A larger MIG will keep the puddle fluid long enough for the "bad stuff" to float to the surface, but keep the metal from overheating at the same time.

Now with all that said, someone is going to disagree and tell me you can take down an angry elephant with a BB gun.

Wow.

Now I'm thinking I need to update from the -175 to something bigger, something I hadn't planned on.....
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #114  
. Does the dual voltage welder really care whether it gets 30amps of 120 or 15 amps of 240????

Since this is an electrical question.... I'll hop in again...

Not many people have 30amp 120v outlets in their garage, AND the dual voltage welders don't have 30amp 120v plugs on their cords. They have a 20 amp 120v cord and a dryer type 220v cord.
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #116  
It took a while to read through the last 5 pages of this thread. It's funny actually.. Everything possible has been said and I have posted my 2 cents as well. The one thing that has not been hashed is a 120v machine with power factor correction. They are out there and are priced right. I'm not going to argue and give reasons for what I say or what you all want to do so look it up.. Other than that 120v Stick is going to give you the most penetration. Or 120v Mig for -1/4" and more so 1/8" max. It is what it is. If you don't bevel, Pre heat and multi pass. Forget 3/8 or retain a lawyer if you fix something for some one. Man.. Is this 120v crap all there is to argue about>?
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #118  
Wow. Now I'm thinking I need to update from the -175 to something bigger, something I hadn't planned on.....

Spray arc welds are beautiful and so much easier than laying down short circuit welds. Makes even a novice look good. As I recall it takes something in the range of a Miller 350 (?252) range to deliver enough power though. $$$$
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #119  
No. A 250 is all that is needed. I use an ESAB MIG master 250 and usually .035" wire. (Max 270 amps) I don't even get voltage but to medium setting...and wire feed turned to 5.5 - 6 out of 10. Some true 200's can do it. with .035 or under wire. Our 250 ( can do it as well. Someone told me they were doing it with our 205. Not sure as I haven't tried it. Probably with .030" wire.... Our smaller MTS 250S will do it on .035" fairly easily. 250's will generally run on 220V 1phase. My transformer ESAB data plate reports 70 amp draw at 270 amps. Never had my 70 amp breaker trip though and my 6 gauge wire never gets warm. 350's will run on 220V 1phase, but most are hooked to 3 phase.
 
   / 120v MIG 3/8" coupon test results #120  
No one said anything about going slowly. The idea is to move more quickly putting more "punch" into the metal to get it to fuse but in a smaller area. A larger welder can do this. Let me try to put it in laymans words. I'm no engineer...

But try to think of this scenario for a minute, and then I'll try to bring it together. Metal disappates heat right? You know that if you ever handled a frying pan. Think of which frying pan you prefer? Which one heats up faster? Which one cools down slower? Each metal conducts heat at a different rate. Cast iron, and stainless conduct it much slower and holds it longer. In welding that is something you have to think about in regards to how much amperage (heat) will be required to weld it. Now think of which burner you want to put the skillet on? Do you want to be there all day? Are you going to but a 10" cast iron skillet on a 4 inch burner set to medium low heat to fry chicken? No, you are going to get at least the 8" turn up the heat to high to get the oil up to temp as fast as you can. Can you fry chicken on a 4" burner with a 10 inch cast iron frying pan? Yes, if you like greasy chicken and it will cook slowly and you'll have to keep it on screaming red high just to keep up with the heat being drawn away by the cooling ability of the metal. And you'll have a hot spot and all sorts of issues as the chicken on the outside won't cook well...while the middle chicken is scorching. But what do you do with the 8" burner? You can turn it down to med high or even medium and it won't even be glowing good and it will still fry that chicken and it will be light, crispy and fast cooking if you do it right.

Now put that idea into welding. The larger mig is the larger burner. The smaller mig is the itty bitty 4" burner screaming on high. The metal is of course the skillet. A larger MIG likely has more inductance capability too, which is another issue which helps the puddle wet in better. The metal will draw away the heat from the weld at a constant rate. A larger MIG can come in with higher voltage and amperage and deposit a clean fast bead with a fluid puddle without having to lay down a ton of metal to build the heat because it can easily overcome the metal's ability to draw the heat away. Building extra heat is not always a good thing. It distorts and stresses metal. Just like when I was welding with the 140E. I had to go slower so the puddle would stay fluid enough to build enough heat to wash the metal in somewhat. Each pass the metal built heat, and the next weld went a little more fluid than the other one as the heat built up. But IF I was to spray arc it for instance, I am guessing I could have welded a single thin pass before the temperature on the edges of the plate reached half the temperature of the plate did with a single pass of the little 140E.

Not sure if this is making sense...but to sum it up...It has to do with the welder's ability to overcome the heat dissipation rate to an extent. The area right at the puddle will melt and stay fluid longer.

One of the other reasons you don't want to make a thicker puddle (and making a cold lapped weld which appears perfect on the surface but does not bond at the root) is that the puddle cooling rate can be too rapid especially with a smaller MIG. If the puddle does not stay fluid long enough, the silicates, other contaminates, oxides, and gas bubbles which are present in every weld get trapped, creating a porous weld. This effect is magnified if welding on rusty/painted metal, or making a second pass on top of a previous pass with signs of surface contamination like slag etc.

A larger MIG will keep the puddle fluid long enough for the "bad stuff" to float to the surface, but keep the metal from overheating at the same time.

Now with all that said, someone is going to disagree and tell me you can take down an angry elephant with a BB gun.


Your explanation made a lot of sense to me. I learned most of this by the time I was 14, and soldering metal.. yes I know soldering is not the same as welding, but some of the principals are the same. You want a size of soldering iron that allow the heating of the joint of the metals you are trying to join to be heated rapidly so the solder can be applied and "wet in" the joint without "cooking" the joint. Too small of an iron will either never get the joint hot enough for a clean shiny joint or even if it does you have "cooked" the components by having to apply it for too long of a time to get it up to temperature to melt the solder.

Again I am not equating soldering to welding because in soldering the solder while bonding to the base metals, it does not penetrate it in any way, and the base metals never melt (or hopefully never do!). But I believe my analogy has some merit, that for small objects you use a hot small iron, because in the small object to be soldered comes up to temperature rapidly as its thermal mass is low. And when the objects get larger, you use a larger iron that requires much more current, because the thermal mass of the object is much more. It "sucks" the heat out of the joint faster than the little soldering iron can put it in. Both of the tips of the little iron and the large iron will both melt solder.

It is a matter of how large the base metal is and its thermal conductivity. I hope this analogy made some sense.
 
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