2-Stage pump driven by PTO?

[N8ghz]

Last year I modified a PTO coupler to drive a pump that was the main pump on a Cat electric fork-lift. I added a tank,etc. to a tractor and used it to run a 3-pt splitter. It worked & split anything, but was pretty slow...even with the PTO in the 1000 rpm mode. This didn't surprise me, as I knew it was sized for a 36vdc motor's rpm.

Anyhow, I am contemplating making a mount to bolt on (above the PTO shaft), a 2-stage pump and drive it with a chain off of the PTO. If I do this, I will first try an 11gpm 2-stage pump, as it can work off of a direct-drive 5hp gas engine. So, I have plenty of PTO Hp and only need to deliver the ~5hp to the pump. When looking at chain power ratings, I find it surprising that it looks like #35 chain would be better than #40. That seems to be due to diameters of the small sprocket as the limiting factor.

I am looking at using a 72 tooth on the PTO coupler and an 18 tooth on the pump....for a 4:1 ratio. That'd give me 4000rpm revved-up using the 1000rpm setting on the PTO. It'd allow me to not rev the tractor so high and stay closer to the 3600rpm that a 5hp gas engine would run at.

Any of you ever done anything like this?

Comment welcome.

 

[rockinmywaypa]

what you're planning to do isn't any different than what is done to gear up most electric pto generators. I want to do the same thing as you are doing with a pump that was installed in a chev truck to power the hoist. I don't have any idea how fast the original pump would have been spinning being driven off the transmission of the truck, anybody reading here know?

 

[Leejohn]

Yes I did, but I only had to go 3 to 1 my pump is a single stage. I used #50 chain.

 

[mrmikey]

Leejohn, if that is a Barnes 2 stage pump ( can't tell from the pic) did you have any problems with the side load on the input shaft? I didn't think they were made to take any kind of a side pull with the 1/2" dia shaft.....Mike

 

[N8ghz]

If I do it, I intend to use an out-board bearing on the pump shaft. I will incorporate it into the bracket that will hold the pump. I intend to bolt the bracket to the tractor above the PTO output shaft with 2 bolts into the rear-end housing below the turnbuckle bracket.

<rockin> I did some reseach on Muncie PTO's and associated hydraulic pumps for an Allison trans in a Topkick.
According to Muncie, the Topkick PTO must be running at 1100rpm at the minimum. The PTO's are available in slightly different ratios, but he indicated that the one I'd want was 1:1. Muncie pumps that fit that unit are available in various GPM's ... ranging from 6 to, I think, 17 GPM. They put out more if run faster.
The Kodiak/Topkicks control the engine speed via the cruise-control button, after turning on the PTO dash switch. This setup is intended for the truck sitting still, not driving down the road.
I have not done this, but I assume at 1:1, that the engine RPM is also 1100 when the PTO switch is ON. To raise the RPM, the cruise button will raise and hold at whatever is wanted. I think 2000 is the highest RPM achievable when in PTO mode? I know this, because I test-drove one that someone had accidently left the PTO button ON.....it would not run down the road....(limited) by the fact that PTO was ON.

I added all that in case someone cares about Topkick PTO's.

For your parts, you may be able to trace some pump numbers & find out what it puts out and at what RPM at the PTO shaft. From there you can choose how you provide that RPM at the pump.

 

[rockinmywaypa]

I appreciate that information. This pump wasn't out of a topkick, just a 2 ton model but there won't be that much difference in rpm speeds.

 

[N8ghz]

<rockin>

Take a look at this PDF.

http://www.munciepower.com/clientuploads/directory/Resources/MP/MP08-02.pdf

included in that, are charts showing each pumps' flow from 600rpm upto 3600rpm.

As you can see, the example I gave using an 11gpm, it does 11gpm @ around 1100rpm....but can do about 25gpm @ around 2400rpm

 

[284 International]

I am sure that will work, but just wanted to comment that I believe "best practices" would be to use sprockets of 73 or 71 and 18 teeth. This would keep the same teeth from bearing the maximum power pulse each time and should increase longevity for the sprocket and chain and would more evenly distribute the wear.

I am really interested to see this project go along.

 

[DRL]

This would keep the same teeth from bearing the maximum power pulse each time and should increase longevity for the sprocket and chain and would more evenly distribute the wear.

Can you explain this statement?

DRL

 

[N8ghz]

off topic, but to:

<284international>

I have (2) 284 Internationals, both diesels 2WD.
Bought one new in '82, and several years ago, I bought another one.

 

[284 International]

DRL: I'm going by experience with gear trains in automobiles, chain driven motorcycles, and what power transmission companies advise. Some references:

Design Of Machine Elements 3E - V. B. Bhandari - Google Books

Gears - Hunting Tooth Frequency

http://www.crossmorse.com/pdf/DriveDesign-Cross-Morse.pdf

Sprockets

Why having odd teeth in your sprockets could save you money


There is a large corpus of other work, too, of varying levels of depth. Similar things are seen in transmissions, axles, and so forth. It probably won't be a problem for N8ghz, I just thought I would throw it out there for him.

 

[DRL]

DRL: I'm going by experience with gear trains in automobiles, chain driven motorcycles, and what power transmission companies advise. Some references:

Design Of Machine Elements 3E - V. B. Bhandari - Google Books

Gears - Hunting Tooth Frequency

http://www.crossmorse.com/pdf/DriveDesign-Cross-Morse.pdf

Sprockets

Why having odd teeth in your sprockets could save you money


There is a large corpus of other work, too, of varying levels of depth. Similar things are seen in transmissions, axles, and so forth. It probably won't be a problem for N8ghz, I just thought I would throw it out there for him.

Thanks, Looks like I have some reading to do. Time to learn something new.
DRL

 

[DRL]

I am sure that will work, but just wanted to comment that I believe "best practices" would be to use sprockets of 73 or 71 and 18 teeth. This would keep the same teeth from bearing the maximum power pulse each time and should increase longevity for the sprocket and chain and would more evenly distribute the wear.

I am really interested to see this project go along.

I read though your links, very interesting. Thanks again. One place it says the driving sprocket should be odd #. That is what you pointed out here. Why would the same not hold true for the driven sprocket?

DRL

 

[284 International]

I think it is probably the safer default guideline. The driving sprocket, if an even number of teeth, will see the peak force from an internal combustion engine on the same teeth in matching links of the chain, and would wear them out more rapidly. Having an odd number of teeth moves that spike of force to a different link each time. With an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump it wouldn't matter which side had the odd toothed sprocket, I don't think.

Most of those links say the driving sprocket should be odd toothed, and that corresponds with everything else I have read or heard. I am only speculating about the driving vs driven sprocket hypothesis, though.

 

[284 International]

N8ghz, I wish I could find a diesel engine for mine. I love the tractor, but the carburetor and ignition gives me fits. While rare and tough to find parts for, it is a good machine.

 

[Leejohn]

Leejohn, if that is a Barnes 2 stage pump ( can't tell from the pic) did you have any problems with the side load on the input shaft? I didn't think they were made to take any kind of a side pull with the 1/2" dia shaft.....Mike

No it's a cross single stage pump. I called cross and they send me all the info on the pump. It gave me the side load and the side that I'm using was something like between 7 and 11 o clock. It has been on there for about 7 years and doing good and only had to adjust the chain one time. That rag you see is soaked in oil and when I'm not using the splitter I wrap it around the chain and put oil on the rag now and then, keeping it soaked.

 

[DRL]

I think it is probably the safer default guideline. The driving sprocket, if an even number of teeth, will see the peak force from an internal combustion engine on the same teeth in matching links of the chain, and would wear them out more rapidly. Having an odd number of teeth moves that spike of force to a different link each time. With an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump it wouldn't matter which side had the odd toothed sprocket, I don't think.

Most of those links say the driving sprocket should be odd toothed, and that corresponds with everything else I have read or heard. I am only speculating about the driving vs driven sprocket hypothesis, though.

Thanks, I'll tuck that away in the back of my empty mind.

DRL

 

[CJONE]

Leejohn, if that is a Barnes 2 stage pump ( can't tell from the pic) did you have any problems with the side load on the input shaft? I didn't think they were made to take any kind of a side pull with the 1/2" dia shaft.....Mike

IMHO any cheap 2 stage pump that I am aware of does not have a input bearing so side loading would result in a junk pump quickly. Unless you build a jackshft sysem to direct drive it. Lees pump I would bet does have a bearing. CJ

 

[Leejohn]

Yes it does have a bearing and like I said, it's a single stage. I'm also almost sure the type of pump you guys are talking about well not take any side load.

 

[N8ghz]

I am still in the measuring/planning stage of what I want to try. I am almost ready to order some parts.

My thinking now is to buy a solid shaft coupler in 1/2" bore, which is 1-1/4" OD. That'll go on the pump shaft, keyed and set-screwed. Then I will either use a 1-1/4" flange bearing or machine the OD of the coupler down to 1". Whatever the dia. I go with will be the bore of the driven sprocket. I have to examine another PTO female coupling to see what diameter sprocket bore will lend itself to that...the driving sprocket.
The pump I have has a ball bearing in it, and with the shaft stiffening of the shaft coupler & the outboard bearing, I believe it will possibly work well?

I am starting to make the mounting plates now...boring a 1-3/4" hole for the pilot boss of the pump housing and tapping 4 bolt holes.

I will try to post some pictures as it comes together.