240D Starter Issue

[Altona]

Good morning, Have been working through a starting issue on my 240D. The issue has been around for a while but I just worked through it or with it better stated. When you activate the starter it will sometimes whirl/grind and not engage. Sometimes it does this once, sometimes 4-5 times before it engages and turns the engine over. Have been getting help from Aaron at Hoyes and winston on tracing through the possible electrical issues with it. Changed the solenoid recently, two weeks ago changed the starter drive. Voltage to the solenoid (battery side) is fine (12.8V) . When the starter is engaged it drops to between 10+11. When it is whirling/grinding voltage is still 12+. Used booster cables as well right to the solenoid, values unchanged. As I was doing the booster thing, obviously tricky trying to have the cables, a voltmeter connected to the solenoid posts and ground and turn the key my ear was relatively close to the bell housing and the grinding seemed more obvious than the whirling (although still not terrible). Different than when you're in the seat turning it over. This caused me to think that perhaps it was more than just a starter issue. Removed the starter to view the ring gear. Marked the spot I could see and with the decompressor open turned the flywheel through the 360 degrees. There is wear all around, but for estimate 80% not too bad in my opinion. there was section that seemed more than the others. Could this have caused the lack of engagement and the whirling/grinding? I 've attached two pictures. It would explain why the engagement is intermittent and random. It would depend where the flywheel landed when it last stopped. I did record the noise it makes but that file type isn't support on this site for uploading. Any opinions or advice welcome. I'd replace the ring gear if that will solve the issue but splitting the tractor is a lot of work and want to feel comfortable that is probably it.
Thanks guys

 

[Altona]

I should add the photo on left is the 20%"worst" on the right is representative of the rest. The black "blob" on the right photo is a mark I made so I would know when I had been all the way around.

 

[winston1]

Not saying it is bad enough but just noticing it is available. FLYWHEEL RING GEAR: Yanmar Tractor Parts

 

[CoyPatton]

Good morning, Have been working through a starting issue on my 240D. The issue has been around for a while but I just worked through it or with it better stated. When you activate the starter it will sometimes whirl/grind and not engage. Sometimes it does this once, sometimes 4-5 times before it engages and turns the engine over. Have been getting help from Aaron at Hoyes and winston on tracing through the possible electrical issues with it. Changed the solenoid recently, two weeks ago changed the starter drive. Voltage to the solenoid (battery side) is fine (12.8V) . When the starter is engaged it drops to between 10+11. When it is whirling/grinding voltage is still 12+. Used booster cables as well right to the solenoid, values unchanged. As I was doing the booster thing, obviously trickyView attachment 664292View attachment 664291 trying to have the cables, a voltmeter connected to the solenoid posts and ground and turn the key my ear was relatively close to the bell housing and the grinding seemed more obvious than the whirling (although still not terrible). Different than when you're in the seat turning it over. This caused me to think that perhaps it was more than just a starter issue. Removed the starter to view the ring gear. Marked the spot I could see and with the decompressor open turned the flywheel through the 360 degrees. There is wear all around, but for estimate 80% not too bad in my opinion. there was section that seemed more than the others. Could this have caused the lack of engagement and the whirling/grinding? I 've attached two pictures. It would explain why the engagement is intermittent and random. It would depend where the flywheel landed when it last stopped. I did record the noise it makes but that file type isn't support on this site for uploading. Any opinions or advice welcome. I'd replace the ring gear if that will solve the issue but splitting the tractor is a lot of work and want to feel comfortable that is probably it.
Thanks guys

What does/did the starter gear look like. Generally speaking the starter gear wears more than the flywheel gears. The worse wear may be enough to cause engagement issues. (On my phone that photo is not crisp/sharp focus).
That said, I tend to think you still have some weak components in the starter—possibly the spring or other electric components.

 

[Roadworthy]

You say you changed the starter drive. What exactly are you calling the starter drive? When my Mitsubishi was doing that I changed the whole starter with Bendix and drive gear. The problem went away.

 

[California]

When my Mitsubishi was doing that I changed the whole starter with Bendix and drive gear. The problem went away.

Similar, I found a badly-rebuilt starter on my YM240 and replaced it with a $100 new starter from Rare Electric (on Ebay). 15 years later now, and it still works fine.

One thing I did was choose a starter with the same teeth and mounting but 2.0 KW rating instead of the 1.2 or 1.4 KW Yanmar spec'd for YM240. This starter intended for a 40 hp? 4 cylinder engine spins the engine like mad. I think this could solve the problem of difficult starting on an engine with low compression, putting off an overhaul for a few years. It needed the wire down from the ignition switch extended 6 inches, no other changes.

But watch out for the Ebay China vendors listing a 'fits anything' starter. I've read that they may ship one with the wrong number of teeth.

 

[Industrial Toys]

That would make perfect sense for the apparent damage, which I don't see as a problem in future.

Starters are so cheap, replacing a suspect one is an easy first step. Having a spare, wouldn't be the end of the world. And if it cures the problem, then you can spend time repairing the old one if you feel like it and have a spare.

 

[Altona]

You say you changed the starter drive. What exactly are you calling the starter drive? When my Mitsubishi was doing that I changed the whole starter with Bendix and drive gear. The problem went away.

Hi roadworthy-What I am calling the starter drive is a sub-unit of a small disc (the solenoid actuator presses against)the spring and the starter gear) When the solenoid activates it pushes the plate forward which compresses the spring and causes the gear to spin up the shaft and engage the ring gear. I did this because the old gear was really worn.

 

[Altona]

Thanks for the input CoyPatton-That was the first thing I did, the starter gear comes as a unit with the spring and actuator plate. The old one was pretty chewed up. Perhaps I'll change the starter first. Splitting the tractor doesn't bother me to change the ring gear other than the enormous amount of work involved but all the advice I'm getting includes a question about the electircal components.

 

[Altona]

thanks California, I think I'll do that. A starter change is super simple compared to anything else. Appreciate the help. Keep safe.

 

[Altona]

thanks Industrial Toys- Think I'll try that. Whole lot easier than anything else as a next step.

 

[Altona]

Hi Winston-I did notice it was available and it may come to that. I suppose I'm looking for someone to express an opinion on the state of the ring gear. Having changed the solenoid and the starter drive recently (interms of hours on it) I'm down to changing the starter and seeing if that works. The ring gear change doesn't look expensive but splitting a tractor is always a ton of time (at least for am amateur like me) Appreciate your help and good to see you on this forum as well as others,

 

[CoyPatton]

I have had flywheels on vehicles that basically were missing a tooth (damaged to the point of all but gone). If the starter gear could grab the next tooth it would usually advance it enough to start the vehicle. It might take a few attempts, but usually happened. Of course this was always a need to go and not able to stop and do repairs. It did often lead to a meed to replace the starter gear as well, but....
Again my display of your bad teeth on ring gear was out of focus (may be my viewer) so hard to express an opinion on the ring gear. The second picture should not cause any issues.
A new starter sounds like the way to go and I would guess will fix your issues.

 

[Altona]

Thank you sir, While I've had this issue on cars through the years I've never had it on a tractor so wasn't sure. I'm going to order a new starter and see. There something odd with the voltage and could easily be it. My amateur view of the teeth was they weren't that bad at their worst but again not sure. Most of the flywheel is like the second pic. Really appreciate the help. Please keep safe.

 

[CoyPatton]

Thank you sir, While I've had this issue on cars through the years I've never had it on a tractor so wasn't sure. I'm going to order a new starter and see. There something odd with the voltage and could easily be it. My amateur view of the teeth was they weren't that bad at their worst but again not sure. Most of the flywheel is like the second pic. Really appreciate the help. Please keep safe.

If you are having a voltage issue, you may not have a starter issue. I thought you had said you had good voltage at the starter.
Before ordering a starter, I would check every connection from the battery ground to the starter connections. It may also be worth the effort to take the battery somewhere and be load tested. It is possible that any loose/corroded connection or weak battery may be your issue and not the starter.

 

[Altona]

If you are having a voltage issue, you may not have a starter issue. I thought you had said you had good voltage at the starter.
Before ordering a starter, I would check every connection from the battery ground to the starter connections. It may also be worth the effort to take the battery somewhere and be load tested. It is possible that any loose/corroded connection or weak battery may be your issue and not the starter.

Sorry Coy for omitting info. The "voltage" issue i mentioned is on the starter post of the solenoid (which is relatively new). On the battery side it is almost 13V steady but on the starter side it is 12 =12.8 when whirling/grinding but when it engages the engine it drops to under 11. That's what I've been struggling to determine, is it something going on inside the starter or is it a mechanical issue involving the starter gear/ring gear. I've cleaned tightened all connection including the ground at the frame. Also used booster cables from a pickup with it running directly to the starter and the numbers don't change.
I apologize, I should have given more info in the first post.
I suppose it could be the solenoid but it wouldn't have 20 hours on it. And it was doing this before I changed it.

 

[CoyPatton]

Sorry Coy for omitting info. The "voltage" issue i mentioned is on the starter post of the solenoid (which is relatively new). On the battery side it is almost 13V steady but on the starter side it is 12 =12.8 when whirling/grinding but when it engages the engine it drops to under 11. That's what I've been struggling to determine, is it something going on inside the starter or is it a mechanical issue involving the starter gear/ring gear. I've cleaned tightened all connection including the ground at the frame. Also used booster cables from a pickup with it running directly to the starter and the numbers don't change.
I apologize, I should have given more info in the first post.
I suppose it could be the solenoid but it wouldn't have 20 hours on it. And it was doing this before I changed it.

Where are you connecting the booster cables?
If the connection point for your booster cables is the battery cable connection, you have not eliminated the potential for battery issues to still haunt you. S battery that shows a surface charge may not have that same charge under a load.
Yes I am arm chair quarterbacking here, but your 11 volt issue could still be the battery.
Just a thought but one I would check!
No stranger than the truck started just like always to go to town, and when you come out if the store, the battery is shot!

 

[rScotty]

thanks California, I think I'll do that. A starter change is super simple compared to anything else. Appreciate the help. Keep safe.

That's what I would do. Try to find an OEM starter for the 240D. I'm assuming that you have watched the starter pinion climb up the shaft when you have it off the tractor and spin up the starter.... and that it looked OK doing that. Probably you checked that the pinion is a good fit on the pinion shaft too. \

And if all that looked reasonable I'm going to guess that it was. There isn't much that can go wrong with a starter itself. They are pretty simple devices to fix, so if you have to get an older OEM one that needs a rebuild but has a good pinion & the OEM solenoid then I'd go that way. You probably already noticed that rebuilding the solenoid itself is super simple. Well, rebuilding a starter is usually simple too. And IMHO rebuilding it is ALWAYS better than trying to fit some kind of aftermarket starter.

To chew up a ring gear like that my guess is the pinion is the wrong one. Typical of aftermarket rebuilds. Maybe the starter is wrong too. From the wear on the ring gear it looks like the pinion either has the wrong tooth count, or not enough engagement, or the starter body has the wrong pinion/motor mount casting. Get another one while you still have some ring gear left.

Oh, btw, those voltage numbers are reasonable. That's not your problem.
rScotty

 

[Altona]

Thanks Coy, Even though I had cleaned and tightened all connections (includiing the ground to frame) I did the booster thing to the solenoid. It was quite a picture, trying to hold the booster to the battery side of the solenoid, not disturbing the voltmeter and watching it and reaching around to get to the ignition switch to turn it over. You make a good point, I never load tested the battery which I should do as I have a load tester. Bought it a few years back when it was on sale and it is still in the box. I tend to do stuff like that, buying tools and meters and forgetting about them. I just enjoy this stuff a lot (most of the time). Thinking about it last night I suppose it is possible it is a combination of two things doing this.
Once I get this and a search done to ensure ensure it is the correct gear and starter motor I'll repost.
Really appreciate you interest and advice.

 

[Altona]

Thanks rScotty
Thinking through everything occurred to me the tractor may not have the correct starter and/or gear. I've had it since 07 but it is a mid-80s so anything is possible. I've found the original Hitachi number in the manual as well as the original Yanmar number so I'll do some research after I find the numbers on the starter. I'm also going to pull it off and count the number of gears. I got the starter drive from Hoye so I doubt it is the wrong number of teeth but you never know, people do make mistakes. I'm going to load test the battery as well. It has been in there for a few years.
It also occurred it may be more than one issue causing it to behave this way. Its a puzzler but I determined to get it worked out.
Really appreciate your input and advice. Auto electrics is my weak point.
Stay safe