3 cyl John Deere 820 starter help needed.

[fullchoke]

The tractor has been sitting all winter, and now it won't turn over. The solenoid gives a loud clunk, but that is all I get. No hint of a starter problem before this. The battery is good at 12.7V at the starter. Tried shorting across the posts on the starter, and got nothing, so I'm thinking the starter is dead. I should have checked continuity thru the starter, but thought that because nothing happened when I bridged the gap between the posts on the starter that it's a bad starter.
That leads to a bigger problem. Removing that starter. The tractor has a JD 37 loader on it, and access to the starter is very limited. Is it possible to remove the starter with the loader in place? I tried for a little over an hour before I ran out of daylight. Even without a loader, access to the upper bolt is limited, and it looks like the bottom bolt could be removed without the loader in the way. I'd buy a special tool if something will work before trying to remove that loader. Has anyone jacked the loader high enough to gain access? The tractor is in a very poor spot to remove the loader. Jacking looks sketchy, as high as the rear posts would need to be jacked to get any room.

Thanks

 

[Tx Jim]

1st thing to do is remove/clean/tighten all 4 or 6 if tractor 2 batteries cable connections. If ground cable connection doesn't attach to engine block then I suggest to relocate this cable attachment to engine block. One can manually raise the loader boom & due to loader having 1 way boom cylinders there's no need to move hyd control valve spool during boom raising. Be sure to ""carefully block the cylinders with 2 pieces of angle iron positioned & zip tied to cylinder rod"" after boom has been raised to sufficient height!!!!!!! Another option is tow start tractor engine & raise loader tom desired height then stop engine operating then immediately block boom cylinders per previous instructions.

 

[fullchoke]

I put a new battery in it, and cleaned, and added new terminals last summer. It started without a hitch every time. The power to the starter isn't interrupted with any starting attempt. The connections are good. I'm as sure as I can be the starter went bad.

Raising the bucket doesn't help with getting at the starter. I would leave the bucket on the ground. The rear stanchions for the loader are in the way. Where they attach to the tractor blocks the starter. You can touch the starter bolts with a wrench but there is no room to turn them. I should be able to jack and block the bucket, but I would need another tractor to get to it to pull it backwards to get it out from where it is. It can't go forward. Trying to pull start it then is an option, then remove the loader in it's entirety. What a pain that would be. Maybe my only option, if I can't jack up the back of the loader up high, leaving the bucket on the ground. Possibly unbolt the loader, and back it up a foot to get at the starter, if the hydraulic lines are long enough. I've never removed a loader, and this one doesn't quick attach. Has anyone run into this problem?

 

[fullchoke]

Re-installing a starter looks to be a problem, if I ever get this bad one out. Getting the top bolt started back in looks harder than getting it out. Especially with the loader on it.

 

[etpm]

The problem could be the solenoid. When the solenoid slams the pinion into mesh with the the flywheel teeth it also slams together a pair of contacts that supply power to the starter motor. These contacts can fail. I had this happen to the solenoid in my 1980/1981 Yanmar YM2310. My tractor was acting like yours. I replaced the solenoid and now all is well.
Eric

 

[Williy]

Have you tried tapping the solonoid with a hammer handle??
Sometimes this works

willy

 

[fullchoke]

I didn't think it was the solenoid because I had 12.7 volts from the battery to the solenoid, and shorting across those 2 poles on the starter resulted in nothing, but I did bump ground once doing that, and sparks flew. I was hitting the starter hard with the handle end of a 5 lb hammer with no result. With that loader post in the way the solenoid can't be touched. If it was a bad solenoid, I'd still need to remove the starter to change it. How I get around the loader is the big problem. I'm hoping someone lifted the back end of the loader framework to get at the starter, and had success. Even if I could get the bolts out of the starter, I'm not certain there's room to get the starter out. Removing the oil filter to bring the starter farther forward would give it a chance. If I knew the starter was going bad, it would not be parked where it is.

 

[fullchoke]

Maybe a box end wrench that ratchets could work if it's short and will ratchet just a little at a time. Who makes that?

 

[fullchoke]

I've been trying to think of anything to get that starter off it's bad spot. Banging on it didn't work. I'm wondering if I set another battery on it, and using jumpers hit the starter with 24 volts for a second. I've used 12 volts on a 6 volt starter to make it spin faster, has anyone tried this on a 12 volt starter? If I keep the key off, and only short across the solenoid, and starter terminals nothing should see 24 volts, I'm thinking. Bad idea?

 

[gstrom99]

Worth a try, but if it's bad - it's bad. Extra oomph won't fix it.

 

[mrmikey]

The battery is good at 12.7V at the starter

That doesn't necessarily mean the battery is good. You could get 12.7V out of 8 "D" cells but that doesn't mean that there's any amperage available. What's the voltage drop to when you attempt to engage the starter?
Any way you can bar the engine over to make sure it's not hydro-locked by something leaking into the combustion chamber?

 

[fullchoke]

What I'm hoping for is to knock it off it's bad spot kinda like beating on it might. If it cranks just an instant it might start then in 12volts, and I can move it to work on it in a better spot. I parked it where it is because there is no covered area for it, and it is covered with a tarp next to my cabin. The wind blows hard and often there so the shelter from the cabin helps keep the tarp from shredding, and sun off the tarp, but it's a bad place to work on it especially if I need to remove the loader.

Mikey, I didn't put a meter on the battery, but I did turn on the lights, and they only flickered when the starter solenoid clunked, they didn't dim.
There is a yoke at the front of the engine that runs the hydraulic pump. I put a socket extension thru that and the engine moved easily.

 

[mrmikey]

There is a yoke at the front of the engine that runs the hydraulic pump. I put a socket extension thru that and the engine moved easily.

Good show, perfect.
Did you try using an auxiliary battery or the one in it and using a set of booster cables one clamped to a good ground right at a cleaned spot on the starter and the other directly to the positive terminal of the starter. bypassing everything, solenoid, safetys etc? Tapping (not beating the crap out of it, the magnets are quite fragile) the starter whilst doing this. Make sure it's in neutral

 

[fullchoke]

Mikey, I like your idea. Being there by myself, I would tap, then walk around to the other side of the tractor to push the starter button, to get the clunk. That evolved to using the wood end of a 5lb hammer, giving it a solid rap. I'll tone down the blows. The hydraulics for the loader prevent access from the right side, so I had to walk around each try. By having power at the time of the tapping could make a big difference. In my experience with starters, once you have to resort to tapping them, the number of times that works is very limited. I just need it to start one more time! If 12 volts doesn't work 24 will be next. The tractor is about an hour away. I'm now going to be delayed until next weekend before I can try this. Thanks

If anyone has tried to remove the starter from a John Deere 820 that has a JD 37 loader attached please speak up. If you had success or found out it can't be done, it would be good to know either way. Thanks

 

[zzvyb6]

We took a 37 loader off using forks from another tractor. Had to triangulate the chains because of the odd center of gravity.

Could you come up with another hydraulic supply and latch it into the loader circuit? With weight in the bucket, the arms with raise up and you can back away from it.

 

[mrmikey]

If 12 volts doesn't work 24 will be next.

Unfortunately if the starter is indeed on a bad spot with no conduction, it wouldn't matter if you connected 120V to it.

 

[MTGreen]

Unfortunately if the starter is indeed on a bad spot with no conduction, it wouldn't matter if you connected 120V to it.

If the starter is in a bad spot with no conduction and the solenoid is working, you should theoretically be able to actuate the solenoid to engage the ring gear and starter gear, then use a socket to move the engine in reverse slightly which would in turn move the starter off the bad spot against the one way bearing in the Bendix gear.
The big downside here is depending on design not all starters can have the solenoid disconnected electrically from the starter motor, so if it's not disconnected doing the above will result in the starter motor suddenly getting conduction and the engine trying to start while you've got a socket on the crank bolt which obviously is not OSHA-friendly...

What about pull starting it in reverse and just dragging the bucket? I've never tried pull starting a tractor before is there any reason that won't work? Alternatively pulling the tractor in reverse while in a forward gear and engaging the starter solenoid should have the same effect as above with a socket but in a somewhat safer scenario

 

[mrmikey]

....the same effect as above with a socket but in a somewhat safer scenario

I'd be nervous of using that approach...not saying I wouldn't do it but nervous, good way to get a power bar in the gums LOL.

 

[fullchoke]

Thanks guys for the ideas. I don't have another hydraulic supply, or room to get another machine near it except from the rear. I do have a JD 855 I could haul 60 miles to pull it out of it's spot, but that's not my 1st choice. It could end up being my only one. I could then tow it out of there, but I didn't think I could tow start while in reverse, very well.
I thought that with increased voltage, it might bridge a wider gap in the starter with 24.
I will look at the starter again to see if the power can be disconnected from the solenoid to it. I remember the 2 posts one on the solenoid with a cable running to it from the battery, and one on the starter next to it. I may be able to disconnect the lead from the starter post. I would need a helper to hold the starter button. I wouldn't want the starter to crank the engine with the socket extension prying inside the yoke that I used before to move the engine. There isn't a nut that I can put a socket on. If there was, the ratchet could take care of a sudden movement, but I'd still be nervous. Looking at the front of the engine, does anyone know which way it rotates while running? I think it's clockwise, but not certain. That would be very important.

 

[Uncle_Charlie]

You mentioned putting new terminals on the cables, and unless I missed something, you are still running the old cables. I've had cables that went bad and steered me toward a new starter. I saw the same symptoms that you see. Nothing worked until I swapped out the cables.