3 Phase?

[DXN1EL]

A few months ago I wire a 50Amp breaker for my PA-300. I took a 30 amp out so I could fit the 50 amp one,
So this past week I connect the wire that it was on the 30 amp one because I needed power on the outlet and light on the outside of the patio, so I put it on another breaker.
The thing is that when I plug the bench it work fine for a wile and then it burn out. "I bought it used"
that same say at night I plug a light and then it burn after about one hour put another same thing happen and I put another one and same thing.
The next day I grab the multimeter and 208V on the outlet WTF. I open the breaker panel and there was this triple breaker on two of the legs of the breaker it had 120V on the third 210V then I notice that one huge wire that comes from the meter to the bottom of that triple breaker has 210V. :cool2:
I look up and notice that four wires are going in to the meter:cool2:

I rent the place so maybe the guy before me had 3 phase?

Two poles have (The two bars where the breakers are place) are 120V each and the third wire that one has 210V
I don't know. but why is the other wire 210V?
If I buy an air compressor with a three phase motor on it can I run it? is that three phase?

 

[grsthegreat]

A few months ago I wire a 50Amp breaker for my PA-300. I took a 30 amp out so I could fit the 50 amp one,
So this past week I connect the wire that it was on the 30 amp one because I needed power on the outlet and light on the outside of the patio, so I put it on another breaker.
The thing is that when I plug the bench it work fine for a wile and then it burn out. "I bought it used"
that same say at night I plug a light and then it burn after about one hour put another same thing happen and I put another one and same thing.
The next day I grab the multimeter and 208V on the outlet WTF. I open the breaker panel and there was this triple breaker on two of the legs of the breaker it had 120V on the third 210V then I notice that one huge wire that comes from the meter to the bottom of that triple breaker has 210V. :cool2:
I look up and notice that four wires are going in to the meter:cool2:

I rent the place so maybe the guy before me had 3 phase?

Two poles have (The two bars where the breakers are place) are 120V each and the third wire that one has 210V
I don't know. but why is the other wire 210V?
If I buy an air compressor with a three phase motor on it can I run it? is that three phase?

yup..you have a 3 phase high leg system. The middle or B leg will be 208-210 volts. If you want 120 you HAVE to make sure you only use the a or C phase along with a neutral.

If you need 208 volts (cant get 220 on this system) you can use any 2 breaker spots.... AB BC or AC

120 you can ONLY use A or C


you can run any 3 phase equipment. You can also run any 240 volt single phase equipment, although it will only be running at 208 volts. Most if not all 240 equipment will run just fine on 208 volts. In the US were 60 HZ, Canada is 50HZ. I have never had any issues with running 50HZ equipment on our 60HZ systems either....but the inspectors dont like to see it.



The high leg or wild leg 3 phase system is a real pisser when you run into them. There the cheapest 3 phase system to supply, so i see lots of them. I was on one job where a Journeyman electrician didnt check to see if it was a high leg system and landed a bunch of 120 volt on demand water heaters to the B (middle) leg. He burnt out 6 of these units. The guy we were working for at that time had to comp all the repair costs. Glad at that time it wasnt my company.

I identify all these systems with orange tape on the B leg. The new 2011 (2014) codes require extensive panel labeling nowdays.

 

[DXN1EL]

Thank you, Sir:thumbsup:

 

[buickanddeere]

[QUOTE=grsthegreat;3637320 Canada is 50HZ.

That is male bovine recycled hay.

Canada had 25Hz at the Sir Adam Beck 1 plant until the 1990's and a motor-generator converter in London Ontario. All tied to a 25Hz to DC genset to power a DC roller mill at a Hamilton Steel Plant.

 

[grsthegreat]

the motors i see coming into Idaho are plated 50HZ. Ive had to get them replated to say 60HZ to appease the inspectors.

 

[buickanddeere]

50Hz is European equipment.
60Hz is the North American Utility grid. We spin two pole generators at 3600rpm and four pole generators at 1800rpm, trust me I would know.

 

[grsthegreat]

50Hz is European equipment.
60Hz is the North American Utility grid. We spin two pole generators at 3600rpm and four pole generators at 1800rpm, trust me I would know.

well thats cool and all, but then why do i keep getting large 3 phase equipment out of Canada that has name plate ratings that say 50HZ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Cuzz 60Hz Canada and 50Hz England are big time trade partners. 50Hz 220V equipment operates just fine on 60Hz 208V.

Are you still doubting Canada is 60Hz ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_mains_power_plugs,_voltages_and_frequencies

 

[grsthegreat]

Cuzz 60Hz Canada and 50Hz England are big time trade partners. 50Hz 220V equipment operates just fine on 60Hz 208V.

Are you still doubting Canada is 60Hz ?

not at all, and personally i could care less if it is or isnt.

I just get tired of having to get the Canadian motors on the large shapers and saws i install approved here. These inspectors give me ****. And all this equipment im installing comes out of Canada. thats all im saying

 

[stuckmotor]

50Hz is European equipment.
60Hz is the North American Utility grid. We spin two pole generators at 3600rpm and four pole generators at 1800rpm, trust me I would know.

Buickanddeer,
I think you are correct because I remember reading that Canada uses 60Hz before. I'm fairly new to the group and curious as to why you "would know" I didn't get a clue by checking your profile. Are you an electrician or engineer? No smart ***** attitude intended.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

The PA 300 will work with that 3 phase power, and pull less amps. Use the red leg for the high leg (high voltage).

 

[buickanddeere]

I've been over, in and under 540, 750 and 860MW nuclear powered steam turbine generators and their support systems for 23yrs. As a Control Tech, Fire Captain and Radiation Protection Green Badge.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

In my recollection of past history what you have is what is called an open delta power distribution. This is a system very seldom used anymore. It was used by power companies to provide 3 phase power for motor loads where the distribution system in the area was single phase, like predominately residential areas. I first encountered this in Phoenix AZ back in the 50s when Air conditioning was becoming high demand in homes. That was their short term solution till revenue for more power paid for changing the distribution systems to three phase primary. At that time 3 phase compressor motors were half the price of single phase and were much more efficient, hence this solution.

Open delta is derived from single phase using only 2 transformers. The so called "wild leg" by code could only be used for the third phase (3rd conductor) of a motor circuit. That conductor had to be a unique color from all the others so it could be readily identified. The motor circuit could not be part of the distribution panel that was required to only single phase. We bus tapped the other two conductors in a gutter ahead of the panel to insure separation. It was a grossly unbalanced system electrically and raised havoc with the newly emerging TV sets and radios. A lot of these setups rapidly were overloaded as more AC units were added to that second transformer. The power company loaded them till they blew up and then replaced with a bigger one.

You probably will never see power companies doing this today. I looked into it once for a 15 HP motor and they said it was my problem to solve with an electrical contractor on my side (secondary). We did the open delta just for the motor. By the way the open delta provides only 60% of the power for the same KVA as a delta or Y connected transformer bank.

This is all recollection from my early years as an Air-conditioning technician in Phoenix.

Ron

 

[Arc weld]

Canada is 60 HZ for sure but there are companies that bring oodles of used machine tools over from Europe to sell here.

 

[stuckmotor]

I've been over, in and under 540, 750 and 860MW nuclear powered steam turbine generators and their support systems for 23yrs. As a Control Tech, Fire Captain and Radiation Protection Green Badge.

Thanks. Now, I know.

 

[buickanddeere]

Canada is 60 HZ for sure but there are companies that bring oodles of used machine tools over from Europe to sell here.

European 50Hz 380/416V equipment also operates just fine on 60hz 440/480.

How is it that your company is using equipment from Canada? Did some company close a Canadian branch and re-locate the equipment to the US to save operating costs?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

In my recollection of past history what you have is what is called an open delta power distribution. This is a system very seldom used anymore. It was used by power companies to provide 3 phase power for motor loads where the distribution system in the area was single phase, like predominately residential areas. I first encountered this in Phoenix AZ back in the 50s when Air conditioning was becoming high demand in homes. That was their short term solution till revenue for more power paid for changing the distribution systems to three phase primary. At that time 3 phase compressor motors were half the price of single phase and were much more efficient, hence this solution.

Open delta is derived from single phase using only 2 transformers. The so called "wild leg" by code could only be used for the third phase (3rd conductor) of a motor circuit. That conductor had to be a unique color from all the others so it could be readily identified. The motor circuit could not be part of the distribution panel that was required to only single phase. We bus tapped the other two conductors in a gutter ahead of the panel to insure separation. It was a grossly unbalanced system electrically and raised havoc with the newly emerging TV sets and radios. A lot of these setups rapidly were overloaded as more AC units were added to that second transformer. The power company loaded them till they blew up and then replaced with a bigger one.

You probably will never see power companies doing this today. I looked into it once for a 15 HP motor and they said it was my problem to solve with an electrical contractor on my side (secondary). We did the open delta just for the motor. By the way the open delta provides only 60% of the power for the same KVA as a delta or Y connected transformer bank.

This is all recollection from my early years as an Air-conditioning technician in Phoenix.

Ron

Ron,
They are still installing delta systems all across the country these days. It's used on farms, factories and all manner of shops, and facilities. 208 can be in open delta or wye configuration. 208 isn't as common anymore, but 240 Delta is. 480 delta is as well. In my area of the country, due to emc cooperatives dominating power service, it's hard to find wye, though they will run it for you if you have the cash.

 

[grsthegreat]

oh, they still use 208 wild leg systems. Im working in a shop thats only 4 years old and it has that installed.

All the panels are filled with most of the B legs empty cause there arnt many 3 phase pieces of equipment being used. Im going to install a transformer and add a 240 single phase panel next to all the 3 phase mess and do some rewiring.

 

[buickanddeere]

Never seen an open Delta utility transformer or a wild leg Delta system in Ontario in 30+ years. Three phase is usually 120/208 Wye and 347/600Wye. Some 600V delta systems for heavy industry. Then a small 600delta to 347/600wye or 600delta to 120/208 wye is used for local single phase loads.
More and more installations with a single phase service then a VFD or transformer and VFD is used together to convert single to three phase.

 

[DXN1EL]

YUP..This place I rent is from the 1950s