4 in 1 bucket tip

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Hi everbody,

I've been relying heavily on the wisdom/experience of Mark and other hydralics-knowledgeable posters.

Been trying to get a grip on this regen./non- regen. stuff re. the 4in1 bucket operation. I boiled it down to "You DON'T want regen. for the "close" function on the bucket."

So I was fearfully anticipating trying to decide/help-my-dealer-decide which of Mark's "3 solutions" to go with, and HOW to make a clean installation.

I am (tentatively) excited and relieved to discover(I think!) that for JD owners there is a "solution 4", that seemingly couldn't be any easier.

The JD SCV lever for the loader (at least on the 4500,4600,4700 models) has a "lock lever" that allows the operator to completely "lock-out" the regenerative function!

Here is the paragraph from p.39 of the operator's manual:

[[ "Move lock lever to middle position (D) to prohibit engagement of the "REGEN" (regenerative) function of the SCV. This position is recommended for all attachments except for the front loader. Loader operation may benefit from the use of the REGEN function. REGEN is available only in position (C)."]]

To me, this sounds like I just make the proper hose-connections to the bucket, "lock-out" the REGEN, and go-for-it. ( The dealer and I tried it on a 4600 w/460 loader on his lot. The "dump" times (empty bucket/idle rpm) were REGEN.. 5.32 sec., NON-REGEN (regen "locked-out).. 13.04 sec. If I understand what I have been reading here, this change in speed would indicate that the bucket is indeed operating "non-regeratively", i. e. stronger "jaw-clamp", when REGEN is locked out.

Is this "too-good-to-be-true"?

I'm afraid my ignorance is letting me miss something here.
Somebody yell at me, and tell me what you think!!??

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

In case I wasn't clear ... the bucket on the tractor we tested the dump-times on was a regular one. There was no 4in1 set-up on it.

I'm wondering how the "preferred"(by Mark) rollback-dump vs. open/close-jaws operation fits-in here (on the JD)?

Per the manual: lever to rear/raise, forward/lower...lever to left/roll-back, right/dump.

??

Thanks again,
Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - The valve you're talking about sounds like the perfect solution, as you suggest.

You'll still want to hook up the hoses so, with the button depressed, it closes when you "roll back" and opens when you "dump".

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Thanks Mark, I'm going to try to hook it up as you say... I've printed out all the discussion about the valving, in case it might help my dealer's people "get the picture", since they say they haven't put one of these on before. Hopefully their general competence will see us through.

It's always good to have your opinion!

Larry

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry,

I have a JD 4700 with a 4n1 bucket.

I have to use the middle position to open and close the 4n1 bucket. If I move the lever all the way to the top, open and close will NOT work.

I've been kinda puzzled by the section of the manual you have quoted and my FEL operation. On the other hand everything works. And I don't think it is slow.

I have tried the to dump the bucket with regen and without and I did not notice a difference. I did not time the operation just seat of the pants kinda thing. I'm sure I was running at 1500 RPM or there about since that is what I usually run the engine for FEL work.

I guess I'll have to go try this out more scientifically!

Later....
Dan McCarty

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan, I'll be interested in whatever you learn.

Do you have a JD, Long or other brand 4in1?

If you have time (at your convenience!) would you mind describing your valve and hose connections?

Does your bucket dump/open and rollback/close as Mark prefers? Do you have a Long-type thumb-button on your control lever?

Needless to say, since we have the same tractor, I'm very eager to hear how it works for you!

Thanks,

Larry

 

[markcg2000]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan (and Larry),
I'm slightly confused by what you two are saying. The 4 in 1 requires another valve, as well as the original two valves for raise/lower and dump/fill, so how would you plan on operating the 4 in 1 from the SCV?
While I don't have plans on getting an FEL ($$$), I do have the SCV and the four connectors. I'm debating the use of them or the addition of the rear hook-up wwhen doing a top link next year (or, at least, I HOPE to do a top link /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.

mark

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Hi Larry,

I was going to work on the property but alas that did not work out. I gotta take a day off sometime! I'm planning on going Monday so I'll time the bucket operations.

I assume I have a JD brand 4n1 bucket but I don't really know. There is not an obvious name on the bucket. Its black if that helps.

Describe valve and hose connnections. I'll have to look and to provide more detail, but I just hook up the yellow to yellow, red to red, green to green, etc. I lack any more knowledge!

What I do know is that I have a diverter value for th 4n1 and a thumb button on the control lever.

I don't think I my 4n1 works as Mark likes since I'm pretty sure I'm using the regen function on the bucket.

I don't have any complaints about the speed of the bucket opening or closing.
Having a 4n1 bucket on a FEL is so useful its unreal. FELs without a 4n1 are handicaped as far as I'm concerned. If I only had an FEL I think I would have only accomplished half of the work I have done on the tractor. At least 50% maybe even 75%.

Of the four implements I have, backhoe, FEL with 4n1, box blade, and rotary cutter. I would give up the box blade and rotary cutter before the 4n1 FEL. It would be hard to decide between the 4n1 FEL and backhoe.

But I'm doing land clearing, driveway building, and road fix'n. The 4n1 is critical to doing this kinda work. When I busted a hydraulic hose on the bucket and was forced to work a day without the full use of the 4n1 it was very painful. I really effected what I could do that day.

I'll time the bucket stuff Monday.

Later...
Dan McCarty

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark,

I THINK but I certainly don't know for sure since I never really looked into the 4n1 operation but I have a diverter value that I have assumed just used the hydraulic pressure for dumping and raising the bucket and diverted the fluid to open and close the bucket.

I just told the salesman that I wanted a 4n1 bucket with a thumb button in the FEL control.

I have a 3rd SCV with a Power Beyond Kit that I use only for the backhoe.

I hope this helps...
Dan McCarty

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Markcg,
My understanding is the same as Dan's.

When the bucket is ordered from Long, it comes with a hydraulic "kit" that I assume includes the (electric)thumb-button(switch) that controls a diverter valve which, when depressed, DE-activates the bucket rollback/dump, and ACtivates the 4in1 close/open, using the same lever-motions, respectively.

Remember that I don't actually HAVE this unit yet...it is on-order. What I say here is my best UNDERSTANDING of things. I could certainly have a less-than-accurate picture of it all. Maybe some others will speak to this issue, and help us get a better grip.

In any case, I'll post more when I get it!

Larry

 

[markcg2000]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Thanks, I must have missed that part about the button earlier. So, when you press the button, which FEL function does it replace?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Markcg,

Again:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin...t&Number=26287&page=&view=&sb=&vc=1#Post26287

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Hi Mark,

To control the open/close operations on the 4n1 bucket you press the red button and move the FEL lever right/left.

With the red button pushed and a lever move left causes the bucket to close. If you want to open push the button and move the lever right.

Unless I got that backwards! Its hard to have to think HOW it works! Especially on a Monday morning!

FEL lever left dumps the bucket and lever right brings it back up.

Hope this helps...
Dan McCarty

 

[Bird]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

<font color=blue>Re: FEL lever left dumps the bucket and lever right brings it back up.</font color=blue>

That would be backwards from the way mine works, but then you have a John Deere, so maybe it's backwards./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif



Bird

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Bird, Bird, Bird, Its those Orange Tractors that have things backwards!

I'm pretty sure I got it right, move FEL right and it dumps/closes. The backhoe's right control moved right digs. Move the same control left and it dumps. I think everything works the same.

Apparently I did not get it right this is what I should have said!

I'm pretty sure I got it right, move FEL left and it dumps/closes. The backhoe's right control moved left digs. Move the same control right and it dumps. Now that I'm totally confused and have no excuses since I HAVE had a Cup O Coffee, I'm going to go hide! I just asked a question in the Rural Area about building a house and dared asked about my sanity. I'm really wondering about my sanity!


BTW, I did not get out on the property on Monday to do our regen/nonregen FEL cycle time test.

I should be out this weekend.

Later....
Dan KnowsHisLeftFromRightJustNotWhatTheyDo McCarty

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by dmccarty on 1/2/01 11:20 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[Bird]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Hey, now you've changed and got it; right dumps, left curls./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Maybe those green tractors do work right./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I have to throw a rock now and then to tell my right hand from the left, too./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan,

From page 15-1 in JD manual (430 and 460 loaders):

"OPERATING CONTROL LEVERS -
Move lever(A) forward to lower loader, and rearward to raise.
Move lever toward operator (left) to roll-back bucket, and away (right) to dump.

Move lever to extreme right for faster bucket dump(I assume this would be with REGEN "unlocked").

I hope to rig my 4in1 to "close" with a left/rollback motion, and "open" with the right/dump motion.

This seems "intuitive' (and easy to remember) to me, because when you pick-up(gather in your arms) or grab(close your fingers around) something, the "motion (of your arms or fingers is "towards" your body...i.e., a "left" motion of the joystick.

Makes sense to me... what do you think?

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan,

Re.; [[BTW, I did not get out on the property on Monday to do our regen/nonregen FEL cycle time test.]]

Remember that the regen(5.32 sec.) and non-regen (13.04 sec) dump-times I got at the dealer were at "idle" (however that may have been set... I didn't note the rpm-asked him later!).

A JD brochure gives the 460 loader dump-time as 2.2 seconds... no rpm given. The signifigant issue seems to be that, regardless of rpm, the non-regenerative time should be SLOWER than the regen time... if in fact the regenerative "assist" is being locked out. This is what we want for our 4in1 bucket operation, if I understand Mark correctly.

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Maybe we should be timing the "roll-back", instead of the dump, if we want to know if the 4in1 jaws will close slower(stronger), in which case it will be the "towards the body"/left joystick-motion that will be the issue.

Seems to me the REGEN-lockout should take care of it in either case,... but I'm too hydraulically-challenged to be confident.

What does anybody think?

Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

All rollback circuits are non-regenerative (not nearly enough force is generated by a regenerative one for the necessary breakout force), so the closing force (if you use the rollback circuit to close the 4-in-1 bucket) will always be whatever is generated by the pressure of the pump and the size of the cylinders on the bucket. So, the speed/force tradeoff issue isn't (an issue, that is).

The other thing to keep in mind is that it's so inconvenient to use the 4-in-1 bucket if it's plumbed to close using the dump circuit that it's a royal pain trying to get anything done. In order to pick up anything, particularly loose material, you have to roll the bucket back as you clamp it. So picture this scenario (with the bucket plumbed "backwards", i.e. close using the dump circuit): Drop the bucket into a pile of whatever. Now, using the following abbreviations:

RB - Roll Back
BC - Bucket Close
JL - Joystick Left (Rollback Position)
JR - Joystick Right (Dump Position)
JC - Joystick Centered (Neutral Position)
TD - Thumb button Down
TU - Thumb button Up

, this is what you have to do: [1]TD, JR (BC), JC, TU, JL (RB), JC, go back to [1] to start the whole process all over again, ad infitum, ad nauseum. (Try it with your hand, using a pencil or something to get an idea for how irritating doing this about 10 times in a row can be, because that's what you'll be doing to pick up something.)

Now compare that with the process if the bucket is plumbed correctly (i.e. the roll back circuit closes the bucket): [1]TD, JL (BC), [2]TU (RB), TD (BC), go back to [2] to repeat the process. Now try this with your imaginary joystick. As you can see, all you have to do while you're actually picking up the material is depress and release the thumb switch. No comparison.

MarkC