4 in 1 bucket tip

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark,

First let me say thanks again for your extensive (and on-going) efforts to help some of us understand these things.

But now I find myself confused by what looks to me like a contradiction between these 2 quotes from your posts ( I know I could easily be missing something here!).:

"....reverse the hoses so the the roll back circuit opens the bucket and the regenerative dump circuit can close it (since that's the only thing it will do anyway). Disadvantages to this approach: The 4-in-1 bucket is a royal pain to use this way (from a usability standpoint) for reasons I mentioned in the earlier posts, and just as important, [[[the clamping force available is reduced as described in the discussion on regenerative circuits above - not a problem in dump circuits, but a big problem in 4-in-1 clamping circuits."]]]

All rollback circuits are non-regenerative (not nearly enough force is generated by a regenerative one for the necessary breakout force), so [[[the closing force (if you use the rollback circuit to close the 4-in-1 bucket) will always be whatever is generated by the pressure of the pump and the size of the cylinders on the bucket. So, the speed/force tradeoff issue isn't (an issue, that is).]]]

From the bracketed parts -

"big problem", or "..not an issue"??

...or am I comparing apples and oranges, somehow?

Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - The answer to "'big problem' or 'not an issue'" is neither, or both, depending. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Sorry to be so confusing. Here's what I meant:

In the first quote, I'm talking exclusively about the dump circuit, not the rollback circuit. So, there's much less force available from a regenerative dump circuit, which is a big problem if you use a regenerative-only dump circuit to close a 4-in-1 bucket, i.e. weak clamping pressure.

In the second quote, I'm talking exclusively about the rollback circuit, not the dump circuit. Since there's no such thing as a regenerative rollback circuit, there's no issue with speed. What you get is what you got. (Unless you replace the hydraulic pump to get more flow, but that's another topic altogether.)

Therefore, you can see why I said opposite things - I was talking about opposite circuits - regenerative in the case of dump circuits, and non-regenerative in the case of rollback circuits. I think. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark, thanks for the quick response...I think I'm slowly getting some of this.

Does " no such thing as a regenerative rollback circuit" mean that when "timing" the JD with the regen. "lockout", that there is nothing to lock-out on rollback, so the time should be the same, whether regen. is locked or not? (whereas on dump, there could be regen., if not locked-out, and the speed would be greater because of it...and locked-out, i.e., "no regen." would be slower - as it in fact was, in my test at the dealer)?!

Larry

 

[markcg2000]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry,

I got the parts manual and the Tech manual for my 790 for Christmas /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif and I've been going over the hydraulic sections extensively. The valve controlling the raise/lower and the valve controlling the dump/curl are different types (within the single SCV setup):

Raise/Lower has a raise,neutral,lower and float. Float is enabled by pushing all the way beyond "lower".

Dump/Curl has curl,neutral,dump and regenerative dump. Regen kicks in when pushing beyong "dump". Regen can be blocked (made not reachable) by the positon of a metal tab on the joystick mount.

Since there is no regen setting, there can be no speed differance in the raise/lower function.

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - Correct. As Markcg2000 pointed out, there is no regen circuit on the rollback side. (At least, I've never seen one. I'm not extremely familiar with JD stuff, but I can't imagine they do it any differently, and from Markcg's post, he confirms that. A regen circuit in the rollback mode would be dangerous because, if you were lifting something heavy and accidentally got it into regen, it could dump suddenly, due to not having enough force available to hold the bucket up, much less roll it back.)

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Thanks, guys!

MarkCG, I will assume the 4700 works the same way as the 790, untill I get my tech manual (ordered yesterday) to check it out. There are minor differences between my "owner's" and your "tech" manuals, in that the term "curl" is not used ("rollback" is), and there is no connection (in print) between the words "REGEN", and "dump".

There is mention that REGEN is "available" only in position "C" ( of the lock-lever)...but that is all that is said...nothing about which function uses it, or what joystick-motion activates it.

Based on your tech-manual, and Mark C's description, I am going to assume(unless/untill my tech-manual says otherwise) the only REGEN function would be "dump"... and then only when "unlocked".

MarkC,

So my understanding now is this:
I put the thumbswitch-controlled diverter-valve in the pressure line to the rollback-dump cylinder (downstream from the scv) ... the diverter then sends the pressure to the r/d cylinder, unless the thumbswitch is activated, in which case the pressure will be sent to the bucket-jaws close/open cylinder.

At what point does the "return" line from the jaw cylinder rejoin the system? (does the diverter valve "pass-through" the "return" fluid into the original rollback/dump return? Or is there no "return connection at all to the diverter valve, the "jaw" return being simply "T"-connected to the r/d return hose?)

Re. "chatter":

Have you had any conversation w/Vance @ Long, concerning the "improvements" he told me had been made in the valve-kit supplied w/the 4in1? Does this relate to "chatter" problems?

Without re-reading all the 4in1 posts, I seem to remember mention of "higher-capacity" valves being a possible solution ... is this something I need to sort out, in order to put this setup together "right" the first time?

(with much appreciative supplication and grovelling
Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - The "solenoid operated diverter valve" is really two valves, not one.

The hose from the dump circuit on your loader valve goes into the input port of one diverter valve, and the hose from the rollback circuit goes into the input port of the other one.

The non-energized output from the dump circuit diverter valve goes to the extend side of the rollback/dump cylinders, just like it did before you installed the diverter valve. Likewise, the non-energized output from the rollback circuit diverter valve goes to the retract side of the rollback/dump cylinders.

The energized output from the dump circuit diverter valve goes to the retract side of the 4-in-1 bucket cylinders, while the energized output from the rollback circuit diverter valve goes to the extend side of the 4-in-1 bucket cylinders.

I did talk to Vance a couple times after I got my setup fixed, but I don't know what they ended up doing to fix their problems. At one point they were talking about putting a bushing into the dump circuit valve to restrict the flow somewhat to help minimize the chatter, which I told them was a "kluge", not a real fix. I think they ended up using larger valves, which is the only right way to fix the problem, but I'm not sure.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark,

Thanks for breaking it down for me.
I'll try to give you a breather while I digest all this for awhile

Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - No problem at all. I'm here to help, not confuse. (I just thought I specifically say that, in case there was any doubt. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)

MarkC

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

I finally got to the propery to work today. I was supposed to be out there Friday afternoon but The Place That Pays The Bills got in the way.

So here is the result of my HomeWork...

I ran two tests, one at 1700 RPM and the other at 2500 RPM. I did not use a watch to time this, just One Mississippi, Two Mississippi... I repeated each test a couple of times to check the numbers. And my Mississippi count.

With the bucket fully UP to move fully down took 9 seconds with the FEL hydraulic lever in the second position. I think that is regen. Non regen, the top position to do the same movement took 7 seconds. At 2500 RPMs the tests took 6 and 7 seconds. Which is kinda strange

From Full Down to full UP. The opposite of the last test. It took 7 seconds regardless of regen or not regen. At 2500 RPS it took 5 seconds, again regardless of regen or not regen.

To open or close the 4n1 bucket at 1700 RPMS took 3 seconds. At 2500 RPMS it was a bit faster, maybe 2.5 seconds.

I'll have to go back to see what I wrote last week about the FEL curl/dump/open/close operations but here is what I did and immediately wrote down on paper! So assuming I can read and write, A big assumption, here is how MY 4n1 works.

FEL control right dumps the bucket.
FEL control left curls the bucket.

FEL control right with button press opens the 4n1 bucket.
FEL control left with button press closes the 4n1 bucket.

Hope this helps....
Dan WithAPulledBackMuscleAggravatedByUsingTheChainSaw McCarty

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan,
Thanks for the feedback...you're doing quite well with you "homework"

With only 1 exception, I think your results confirm what MarkC has been trying to teach us, and what the owner's manual and my own test at the dealer suggest. And they indicate that your 4in1 bucket-controls work in the "preferred" manner.

About the 1 exception:
You write -[[ "With the bucket fully UP to move fully down took 9 seconds with the FEL hydraulic lever in the second position. I think that is regen. Non regen, the top position to do the same movement took 7 seconds. At 2500 RPMs the tests took 6 and 7 seconds. Which is kinda strange ]]

I'm assuming that all your tests were done using the left/right motions of the joystick only.
In other words that when you say the bucket is moving up/down, you are talking about rollback/dump operations...NOT about about lowering the bucket to/raising it up from-the ground.

Assuming this is correct, then all we need, in order for everything to "work-out", is for the regen/non-regen positions to be the opposite of what you thought. I think that is the case.

If, when you talk about the FEL hydraulic lever being in the 2nd position, you are really talking about the SELECTIVE CONTROL VALVE LOCK LEVER (look at the top-right photo on page 39 of your owner's manual), then the 2nd (or middle) position is the one with the symbol that looks like an open book. This position is NON-REGEN (it is locked out!).

The REGEN position is the 1st(or top) position. The symbol is an unlocked-padlock... showing that REGEN is "unlocked", or functioning.

With this understanding, the REGEN operation is faster, as expected.

And on rollback, where Mark tells us there is never a REGEN function, regardless of lock-lever position, both tests were non-regen, and both had, therefore, the same speed.

It seems like everything is working "hunky-dory"(anybody know what THAT means?)!

Thanks Dan, for all your work,

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan,

In my last post, I only considered your 9sec/7sec test.
( conveniently, things worked-out well doing it this way

I wasn't sure which time went with which setting (REGEN/non-regen) on the 6sec/7sec test. And whichever it was, the 1-second interval was likely to be a little less accurate, using a voice-count, than the 2-second difference of the first test.

This makes sense in my head... not sure if it makes any sense coming out my fingers!

Let me know what you think,

Larry

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry,

I DO know what hunky-dorey means! Course I don't have a clue as to where the staying comes from. I'm sure the old timers do!

The tests were just moving the bucket. I had the FEL raised 3-4 feet off the ground.

I really expected a decrease in time on my "exception." I don't know if things are WAD or my counting is off as well as my reading and writing.

The FEL lever is the SCV valve lock lever. But it is working as I described. To put it another way, if I put the SCV value lock in the unlocked position, the position closest to the operator seat aka the unlocked padlock, I CANNOT use the open/close operations on the bucket. If I put the lever in the middle position I CAN use the open/close operations.

SOOOO, if I need regen, open lock decal on the SCV lock lever, to work the open/close functions of the 4n1 bucket, then my FEL is not plumped correctly.

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks...
Dan McCarty

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

<font color=blue>I DO know what hunky-dorey means! Course I don't have a clue as to where the staying comes from. I'm sure the old timers do! </font color=blue>

It is named from a flat bottom boat used by the Portuguese to fish Cod in the North Atlantic(Dory) The boats were made from peanut butter with chopped nuts./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Or maybe/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hun2.htm

 

[Billc]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Twinkle Toes, dog gone you!!!!

I get up most mornings about 4:30. Not for any particular reason other than I like to get up at 4:30....guess it goes back to my swimming days. Anyway, I get up, get my coffee, get on the net, and go to my ususal boards to read, this being one of them. About day light I get on with my day. The web sight you listed threw my morning ritual way off. I was facinated by your link. I stayed on that sight for 2 hours. Like I said, dog gone you!!!

Do not go to T.T.s link, it is way to mesmerizing!

Thanks

Bill Cook

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Twinkle Toes,

Great link... just what I was asking for when I wondered if anyone knew what it meant.
I like the "Japanese street" version

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Dan, you wrote [[[SOOOO, if I need regen, open lock decal on the SCV lock lever, to work the open/close functions of the 4n1 bucket, then my FEL is not plumped correctly.

Is my understanding correct?]]

Almost,(in my opinion)!
You DO NOT need REGEN (yes, it is the unlocked-padlock)...You need NON-regen (open book symbol), for 4in1 operation (per MarkC). AND YOU SEEM TO HAVE IT!

I'd say your FEL is plumbed just fine

By the way, I'm really enjoying these "conversations", and your experiments.

Thanks,
Larry

 

[Keoke]

Rich, did you plumb your bucket to open and shut the clam on the bucket roll or the bucket lift circuit. Just got my 64" Long bucket today and Long's instruction say to plumb bucket rams into the the loader lift circuit. I would appreciate knowing your thinking on this. I know Mark wrote a bit about this a while back and I will try to find it.

thanks again,
george

 

[Anonymous Poster]

George,

Faced with the same instruction-sheet, I called and spoke with Vance, at Long's.

He said "no-problem", plumb it either way on my 4700. I think this was because the 4700 has a regen-lockout lever, that will prevent the regen-circuit problems that Mark has described.

I don't know about the 970. You'll want to be sure you understand what Mark was saying, and how your tractor hydraulics work, and might be well-advised to talk to Vance before you proceed.

I went ahead and plumbed into the dump-rollback circuit, and everything works as Mark preferred,... dump=open-with-button-pushed/rollback=close-with-button-pushed.

I don't trust my memory enough to try to repeat what Mark has already said so well, and think your intent to find and review his posts is the way to go.

So I guess all I'm really contributing is encouragement to talk with Vance.
As you probably already know, he is very helpful /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif .
Larry

 

[Keoke]

Larry, my 970 JD also has a two stage re-gen valve for bucket roll dump mode. So I guess I will plumb it like you and Mark suggest. Did you block out the re-gen portion (far right) part of you dump circuit by moving that stop bar on the valve body in place. Or do just simply just not move the stick to the re-gen (far right) section when using the 4n1 bucket. Also, what happens if you do go to the far right while pressing the button to work the clam cylinders.

thanks again,
george