Art: No, I don't work for a tire or rim company. I just have forty plus years experience running tractors. As long as you attacked my credibility I shall make one more attempt to make my point. #1. Cast weights ARE harder on the differential. They are hanging from the axles. It's called physics. Fluid provides weight to the tire, not the entire differential. This sloshing around idea is new to me. Tractors normally work in less than a 5 mph range. If your fluid is sloshing around that much you shouldn't be running a tractor in the first place. It would be highly probable that your driving techniques are hurting your differential more. #2. People seldom change the weights once the have them in place. It's just not practical to be changing ballast for every job you perform. As time goes on cast weights connections actually increase problems to the tractors differential because of wear and tare. Your consistency goes out the window with every bent or loose connection. #3. You continue to bring up "old school" but you haven't cited any factual data that contradicts my former comment. Namely, the testing you referred to did not take tire pressure into account. Spend a little time surfing the internet searching "ag tire pressure" and you'll soon find out that it is COMPLETELY new school. Why do you think radial tires are become such a rage with tractors? Lower tire pressure! Less soil compaction! Which is exactly what I was trying to tie into with adding fluid ballast in order to make it work properly. Some of the respondents here seem to worry soley about tire leaks. If I worried that much about tire leaks I'd go back to steel wheels.
4320 do I load the tires or not
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art
Super Member
Other then what the liquid ballast hinders the operation of the tractor it does have the added disadvantage of making a mess when the tire leaks and will cost more to repair and you have to pay for it again.LWB said:
Regardless we still install it in new tractors and tires if people want it and we still fix them. I felt there was not a better way of doing it for many years then adding the calcium, then the manufacturers of the tractors dropped tubes from coming in the tires! What do we do now, take them down and add tubes to protect the rims from the calcium? We should, what is the cost? To know of the long term costs it's become the best alternative to go to cast or solid weight systems. Solid weight is the best simple sytem to balance a tractor with for overall performance and cost. You may not believe it! It's the best that I've been able to see from my position using the tools and schools and the tractors that I've had to work with. I wish you well with your concept!
JerryG said:
JerryG; Nope I have not yet down that. I was waiting to see what my locaLl dealer indicated about the tire width. I told them to put it at the widest setting on all 4 tires. If that is not enough, i may have to spring for the unverferth hub extensions on the rear and then I could take it out another 6 inches on each side. But to get it back into the garage, I would need to switch the wheels back to the narro settings so the width won't exceed 72"
, and then I can't get the tractor back into the garage. With reference to salt. I used, used antifreeze from a local auto shop. Got my 4100's rears filled for less than $175 bucks So the rust/corrosion worry for me is not there. only the leak worry was there. I will try the wider setting beforf going to the extensions and/or loading with used anti-freeze.orlo
Platinum Member
Just my two cents. (BTW: I have a 2305 and a 3320 both with loaded tires) but I also have a 700# balast box for the 2305 and a 1000lb Balast box for the 3320.
Loading them will make the rider harder. Also having weight on the rear 3pt hitch is better is some ways to loaded tires. Loaded tires will only 'pull down' the tractor when the axle is trying to lift them off the ground (unloading the rear wheel bearings and putting almost all the stress on the front axle) - This is like a see-saw and puts more stress on the front axle. Putting the weight on the tractor itself behind the rear axle (and not in the wheels) actually keeps the weight on the rear axle (actually put's more of the weight on the rear) and takes some off of the front axle. Picture jamming the bucket and lifting it so the rear wheels are off the ground - All the weight is on the front axle minus the weight of the rear tires/wheels.
As an argument going the other way the weight of the wheels and their loading doesn't count as axle load so it's sort of almost 'free weight' when it comes to calculating the load on the axle.
Loading them will make the rider harder. Also having weight on the rear 3pt hitch is better is some ways to loaded tires. Loaded tires will only 'pull down' the tractor when the axle is trying to lift them off the ground (unloading the rear wheel bearings and putting almost all the stress on the front axle) - This is like a see-saw and puts more stress on the front axle. Putting the weight on the tractor itself behind the rear axle (and not in the wheels) actually keeps the weight on the rear axle (actually put's more of the weight on the rear) and takes some off of the front axle. Picture jamming the bucket and lifting it so the rear wheels are off the ground - All the weight is on the front axle minus the weight of the rear tires/wheels.
As an argument going the other way the weight of the wheels and their loading doesn't count as axle load so it's sort of almost 'free weight' when it comes to calculating the load on the axle.
JerryG
Super Member
This isn't the article that I was looking for but it tells Michelins thoughts about ballast pretty well. Look at the right side of page 1. http://www.michelinag.com/agx/en-US/news_info/growing_forward/Growing_Forward_Fall_2006.pdf
Z-Michigan
Veteran Member
Useful article, thanks. I'm now rethinking whether I have too much ballast in general (regardless of whether it's fluid vs. metal) but I may post a new thread for that topic.
It seems the printed word can sometimes come accross argumentitive. After reviewing my last post I must apologize to Art for not picking my words better. We're all going by personal experience as life presents it and nobody is out to intentionally screw anyone else up. It appears that this discussion has piqued enough interest from some members, though, to at least investigate and ask questions. What puzzles me is why, in the 21st century, when tractor manufacturers boast more torque for their respective models, they still don't do specific testing that would validate those claims and PRINT IT in every owners manual. What good is torque if it isn't delivered efficiently to where it's needed? That would make this whole topic mute. When I had my present tires loaded (JD 4720 w/cab) the tire company put 43 gallons (11#/gal. avg. - 75% fill) and 25 psi in each tire. The tire itself clearly stated "do not exceed 14 psi." My manual avoided the subject completely. I emailed JD and they told me to ask the dealer. The dealer told me to ask the tire company. After some personal experiment- ation I settled on 6# and the tractor performs great in all conditions from mud to snow and ice. I think the next time I trade I'll just buy a big enough tractor where I won't need any ballast!art said:
Well i went to the dealer and what do you know came up - loading tires. My local dealer's service manager said that the Tractor training school's he has been going to in recent years indicate that they do not prefer loading, they preferred putting on the counter balancing weight over loading the rear tires. Again it was indicated that when loading tires, windshield washer fluid, anti-freeze, tubes combos are preferred. They indicated leaks and with other fluids rust were the main issues. The leaks apparently are initially hard to detect? I saw my tires in the wide setting and so I will try that first and see if that is stable enough. If not I will try the rear weight as fluid (used anti-freeze), or wheel weights or just rocks in the ballast box.
I am one to agree that adding weight behind the tractor is better then in the tires. takes weight off the front axle. I would say a 1000# rear ballest box would be better then 1500# of weight in the rear tires. You can easily take the weight off when you dont need it. I use a box scraper with added weight to it so its about 800#s. If your doing nothing but loader work all day i would say loading tires would be a good option but if half the time your doind other things like bush-hogging or mowing then i would rather have less weight. I dont like loaded tires myself but i do have a tractor with loaded tires and i have puctured the tire twice. usually you will see the leak and rotate tire so the leak is on the top and you most of the time will not lose hardy any liguid. I dont agree that if you puncture you will lose it all like stated here. However, i had to take it 40 minutes away and put new tube in and change fluid over which cost $150 or something like that so its a pain for sure. thats why i wont load anymore myself but if you do, dont worry about losing all your fluid with a puncture.
Mike
Mike
art
Super Member
A few years back, like 27 or more I was working with a 1086 IH tractor which the fellow wanted to win in the local farm stock tractor pulls in the 15,000 lb class. The tractor performed well with calcium in the tires (at that time I felt all ballast was the same) and he was enjoying the wins. After a couple of years many of the boys he was pulling against all went to the 12,000lb class. So we had to lighten the tractor by removing the calcium and go to steel ballast. This tractor did the plowing, discing, chopping, during it's normal time so with a quick turn in the shop we could set it back to near stock settings for him.
When we went back to the track it took a bit to find what was right with the lighter class, but in the larger class the tractor was better then before! We had added all the weight we could in the factory halves to the hub. The first pull he said it wound up better and seemed that it was far easier to get the clutch out. This particular tractor used a hydraulic clutch lever which in the past trying to go up a gear would not allow the release! We found that with the weights bolted to the hub we could get the clutch to release which with the added speed just made it that much faster! He won by larger margins in the heavier class. It took about three pulls before we got the lighter classs ballasting correct but it proved to be quite a challange as we were having trouble getting the proper ballast.
We have been working with the bias tires in the same way as the radial tires and what we have found is much the same, extended tire life as well as increased overall performance of the tractors. We thought what the heck, lets try it and it has worked with much the same success. We've seen longer life, less fuel being burned and better ride.
Some tire manufacturers have never built a bias tire so I'd doubt they would have but limited experience with them. Some have, but radial tires have been the main focus for nearly thrty years on farm tractors although depending on what the tractors are used for many on utility tractors are still bias ply.
I said before we still load tires! It is less then half by tractor volume as some just won't change! That's still fine by us, some might think that they have had good success with it before so why worry!
Just for an added note, the other day we had a BX that the owner had us load the back tires. When we were getting started with the service when jacking the rear we had to move the jack all the way to one side to get it to raise level. We later checked and on a Sunday he had a flat and plugged it and filled it with washer fluid! We showed him the difference and he told us he thought that he could feel it from time to time with traction! He did have us refill the tire with calcium to ballance it. This is a problem even if you catch the leak early and don't loose much. You will never know if you have a match!
When we went back to the track it took a bit to find what was right with the lighter class, but in the larger class the tractor was better then before! We had added all the weight we could in the factory halves to the hub. The first pull he said it wound up better and seemed that it was far easier to get the clutch out. This particular tractor used a hydraulic clutch lever which in the past trying to go up a gear would not allow the release! We found that with the weights bolted to the hub we could get the clutch to release which with the added speed just made it that much faster! He won by larger margins in the heavier class. It took about three pulls before we got the lighter classs ballasting correct but it proved to be quite a challange as we were having trouble getting the proper ballast.
We have been working with the bias tires in the same way as the radial tires and what we have found is much the same, extended tire life as well as increased overall performance of the tractors. We thought what the heck, lets try it and it has worked with much the same success. We've seen longer life, less fuel being burned and better ride.
Some tire manufacturers have never built a bias tire so I'd doubt they would have but limited experience with them. Some have, but radial tires have been the main focus for nearly thrty years on farm tractors although depending on what the tractors are used for many on utility tractors are still bias ply.
I said before we still load tires! It is less then half by tractor volume as some just won't change! That's still fine by us, some might think that they have had good success with it before so why worry!
Just for an added note, the other day we had a BX that the owner had us load the back tires. When we were getting started with the service when jacking the rear we had to move the jack all the way to one side to get it to raise level. We later checked and on a Sunday he had a flat and plugged it and filled it with washer fluid! We showed him the difference and he told us he thought that he could feel it from time to time with traction! He did have us refill the tire with calcium to ballance it. This is a problem even if you catch the leak early and don't loose much. You will never know if you have a match!
