4x4 Question

[Soundguy]

First.. I'd like to know where people are getting the idea that there is a line drawn in the sand.. and that 2wd tractors are handicapped , useless, unsafe, slow, ineficient. Every job has criteria. As I have said many times.. get a tractor that meets the criteria to match your job. If you can't.. you have to compromise. For instance.. int he case of the person that can only afford 1 tractor.. and needs large tasks and small tasks.. the 4wd my not be an option due to price.. thus you compromise. the weights are a good compromise.. in some cases.. in others.. not.

I didn't make the comment about backing up the hill.. that was someone else's message.

It's not my fault that 600# adds 50% more weight to your tractor.. sounds like you may have too small a tractor for that task that made the front end light... the advise is not wrongbecause your tractor is small.. it just doesn't apply to your situation. Same with us 2wd tractor owners... I'll bet alot of us have flat land.. I know I do..

Lots of land got worked with 2x4 and 2x3 tractors before 4wd made it to mainstream farming. The farmers made due.. when better stuff came along.. the ones that wanted it, needed it, and could aford it.. got it. The ones that didn't need it.. didn't get it.. and the ones that couldn't afford it.. made due.. or compromised. I'm not advocating any different.

As I said before.. if ya need 4wd, and got 4wd.. use it... ( but quit griping at us 2wd users that don't need it... ) I own pancake flat land... I can't justify spending money on 4x4 tractors to mow with... As for safety.. that's an individual issue. I don't think I've seen anyone here advocate being intentionally unsafe.

You guys need to understand there is not a black/white line in the sand between the 2 issues.. rather.. there is a large grey area with many answers and options between the two... that's what I.. and many others have been trying to say... nothing more.. nothing less..

Soundguy

Yes, I understand the procedure. I also understand that what you're saying is basically that if you handicap yourself by restricting yourself to only using the safest and slowest procedures you're going to be fine. The fact is that with 4wd you don't have to restrict yourself to exclusively backing down hills. It's called progress. Once farmers used mules, and they worked just fine. Then there were tractors, and farmers learned how to use them. Now we have 4wd tractors.

In a perfect world we'd all have 5 or 6 tractors, each that work for a particular weight and job. In the real world, at least here on this board, most of us have one tractor that's too big for some stuff and too small for other stuff, and we make it work. If you can handicap yourself by using only 2wd and still get your work done, good on ya. If you want to take every advantage offered by the tractor and greatly increase your safety margin, get a 4wd. You will never, however, convince me that using a mule or a 2wd tractor by simply following special procedures will ever be as fast, efficient, or safe as doing the same things in a modern 4wd tractor.

As far as putting more weight on the tractor, sounds good but I don't want to. If I put your 600lb weight on the front of my tractor, it would weigh half again more than it does now. Weight also reaches a point of diminishing returns for marginal gains. I have room for one more suitcase weight, and that's it. Adding more exceeds the design specs. For an occasional lightening of the front wheels with one implement, it's not worth the monetary, procedural or equipment stress penalty.

 

[ovrszd]

Rich, thank you for reporting this well. Without that it would have been extremely difficult to make the proper connections to identify the special case that caused this. - - In 2WD your front wheels were trying to push that log. In 4WD they just climbed over it. We learned something about 2 vs 4, but not that 4 is more efficient.
No.
Larry

Heheheheheh...... I was wondering if someone was going to catch that. I'm taking a back seat on this subject and am going to help the other guy (can't remember his name) push the snowball for a while!!! Heheheheheh.

 

[whodat90]

First.. I'd like to know where people are getting the idea that there is a line drawn in the sand.. and that 2wd tractors are handicapped , useless, unsafe, slow, ineficient. Every job has criteria. As I have said many times.. get a tractor that meets the criteria to match your job. If you can't.. you have to compromise. For instance.. int he case of the person that can only afford 1 tractor.. and needs large tasks and small tasks.. the 4wd my not be an option due to price.. thus you compromise. the weights are a good compromise.. in some cases.. in others.. not.

I didn't make the comment about backing up the hill.. that was someone else's message.

It's not my fault that 600# adds 50% more weight to your tractor.. sounds like you may have too small a tractor for that task that made the front end light... the advise is not wrongbecause your tractor is small.. it just doesn't apply to your situation. Same with us 2wd tractor owners... I'll bet alot of us have flat land.. I know I do..

Lots of land got worked with 2x4 and 2x3 tractors before 4wd made it to mainstream farming. The farmers made due.. when better stuff came along.. the ones that wanted it, needed it, and could aford it.. got it. The ones that didn't need it.. didn't get it.. and the ones that couldn't afford it.. made due.. or compromised. I'm not advocating any different.

As I said before.. if ya need 4wd, and got 4wd.. use it... ( but quit griping at us 2wd users that don't need it... ) I own pancake flat land... I can't justify spending money on 4x4 tractors to mow with... As for safety.. that's an individual issue. I don't think I've seen anyone here advocate being intentionally unsafe.

You guys need to understand there is not a black/white line in the sand between the 2 issues.. rather.. there is a large grey area with many answers and options between the two... that's what I.. and many others have been trying to say... nothing more.. nothing less..

Soundguy

At the risk of sounding agreeable, I agree with everything you said. I don't believe that 2wd tractors are useless, inefficient or any of the other words you used. I just think that they are less capable overall than a comparable 4wd. Not, as you pointed out, in all situations. Just overall. What I disagree with is the viewpoint that using 4wd will cause undue stresses and disproportionate wear on the machine, which is what the original discussion was headed to. It then blossomed into the excessive wear advocates pointing out that you can do anything in 2wd you can in 4wd, just differently.
Yes, my tractor is possibly too small for carrying that tiller. It's also too big to just drive to the mailbox. That's the gray area. It does both jobs adequately. If I could afford a much larger tractor, I would buy one. Right now mine doesn't have a loader. I won't put one on because I don't have power steering. Lots of people have successfully had manual steering tractors with loaders, and I understand that mine would work just fine too. I just know that progress has been made and I don't want to invest that much money in something that is handicapped out of the box compared to a more modern machine. (local dealer offered to put on a loader for $3K; if instead I sold my tractor and put that $3K on top of the money, I could probably buy another tractor with power steering and a loader... etc...) Another gray area, and personal decision.

Edit: as an aside, other than bushhogging, I can no longer imagine mowing with the tractor. I had a 5' massey estate groomer that I used to finish mow for a year or so, mowing 3 acres. Took forever. Sold it, bought a used front mount zero turn, and immediately cut my mowing time in half. I don't know if it'd be as big a difference over a mmm, but I'm now convinced that money spent on a tractor mower is much better spent on a ZTR. So once again, in a perfect world people would have a ztr for mowing and a tractor for tractor duties rather than spending $18K on a mower with a fel.

 

[Timber]

See I think that is an entirely different thread 2 wheel drive Tractors Vrs. 4 wheel drive. It is one thing to have a 4 wheel drive and opt not to use it and another to not have it at all. People that use 2 wheel drives usually do a lot more pulling with them than loader work. We only had 2 wheel drive tractors as a kid but 90% of the work it did was plowing, disking. Pulling the spreader and bailing hay. The loader mostly carried tools. I will say though we had an old Farmall with a tricycle set up and a gravity dump bucket. Scariest tractor I have ever been on. It has been on its side more than once because of the loader

 

[whodat90]

Trikes scare me even without a loader. With a loader they just seem like a way bad idea.

 

[N80]

I agree with SoundGuy about 2wd tractors. For the largest majority of them (and I suspect the majority of large tractors in use are not 4wd) a front driveline is simply unneccesary. My B-I-L (who I use as an example a lot because he is the only real life example I have) has 8 or 10 or 12 tractors on his ranch. All 2wd, most large, two with loaders. When it comes down to spending additional money, it has not been worth it for his farm operations to even consider a 4wd tractor. He mows, bales and moves hay, he bushhogs with 14 foot two spindle rotary cutters. His pastures are gently hilly. 4wd would just be an unneccessary hit against his bottom line.

But, that really isn't the discussion here, its just a side bar. It really just boils down to right tool for the right job.

 

[Soundguy]

But, that really isn't the discussion here, its just a side bar. It really just boils down to right tool for the right job.

Well said.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

What I disagree with is the viewpoint that using 4wd will cause undue stresses and disproportionate wear on the machine, .

Hmm.. I think i remember saying that running in 4wd causes 'extra' load and or stress, and wear on the front driveline components.. not 'undue' or 'disproportinate'.

The point was that if you had a tractor that was 4x4 and could be switched to 4x2.. that I would switch it into 4x2 for tasks that dind't need 4x4. I.E. If I was going to go mow my flat pasture for 8 hours.. I'd shift to 4x2... Now.. if after mowing i needed to haul the hay wagon up and down mount everest during a snow storm.. I'd engage 4x4...

In summary.. if ya got 4x4.. use it when needed... if it ain't needed.. why load up the front driveline...??

Soundguy

 

[Timber]

I think the big issue hear is we are trying to cover a very broad area of the demands we ask out of are equipment. A commercial farmer is not going to have the same perspective as the guy with a 6 Acer spread and 2 or 3 horses. A guy that is working with 1 tractor and a small property is going to try to make his equipment cover a much broader duty list and will run his equipment at both ends of the safety spectrum. A commercial farmer has a bottom line to consider and buys equipment for a specific task range. I am sure we all hear push the limits of are equipment on a regular basis but the guy multi tasking with his tractor is going to do it a lot more often. It is all well and good to say right machine for the right job but the real world application doesn’t work like that and it is simply not realistic to think people will adhere to that way of thinking. It always comes down to cost, convenience, time and just what is practical. Hey look tractors have been ripping arms off people, rolling over and crushing them, running over there operators and running off into the sunset with no driver since they were invented. So we try to build them better and safer. It doesn’t mean you need this stuff but it helps. If you chose not to put your rops up and use your 4 wheel drive or your seat belt it's on you. But you don’t need any of this stuff to get the job done

 

[mark4Jesus]

The Operators Manuals for the Kubota B2150 that I used to have and the MF 1433v that I own now both said to only use MFWD when needed. Both manuals advised to use only when the extra traction is required, otherwise keep them in 2WD.

 

[ovrszd]

Hmm.. I think i remember saying that running in 4wd causes 'extra' load and or stress, and wear on the front driveline components.. not 'undue' or 'disproportinate'.

The point was that if you had a tractor that was 4x4 and could be switched to 4x2.. that I would switch it into 4x2 for tasks that dind't need 4x4. I.E. If I was going to go mow my flat pasture for 8 hours.. I'd shift to 4x2... Now.. if after mowing i needed to haul the hay wagon up and down mount everest during a snow storm.. I'd engage 4x4...

In summary.. if ya got 4x4.. use it when needed... if it ain't needed.. why load up the front driveline...??

Soundguy

Yep, that was our first stand Soundguy. Then all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractor jumped on us. Then we responded with examples of why that causes extra wear and tear on the front end. Then all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractor jumped on us again about how it couldn't possibly cause extra wear and tear or the manufacturer wouldn't have included it. Then we responded with use it when you need it. But by then the "war" was on and all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractors were entrenched and ready to argue even the most obvious point.

This has certainly been a good thread though and has shed some definate light on each participants experience level with such equipment and offered some excellent and some not so excellent advice. Which is the ultimate goal of this forum!!! So it's a win/win!!!

 

[neverenough]

Among other pieces, I've used an FEL on a MF135 and my 2810HST, similar weigh tractors (MF plus 300 lbs.). Operations that are marginal on the 135, such as driving down a bank or trying to back uphill with a load in the FEL are handled substantially easier with the 2810. Work which is marginal for the 2810, such as wrestling stumps up and down slopes yesterday (thanks to Ernesto), the 135 simply would not be able to handle.

I expect the front wheels were providing 50% (or more) of the traction during this hairy manuver, much more than "aid". This is an extreme example. The more challenging the terrain and load, the more FWD is going to help.

All this probably doesn't mean squat if the work is move dirt, hay etc. on flat ground. And it's just my opinion.

Now see, there is a prime example of front assist at work. It "aided" you in getting the job done. While driving up the hill with a load on the loader is better, if you have no choice but to back up, FWA would "aid" you in doing that too.

See, the point was, some people were leaving the impression that you could work a MFWD tractor more than a 2wd equal. In reality, all the MFWD does, is allow you to do the same work as an equal 2wd, but in harsher conditions, like loose soil, slippery hills, ect... where the workload is not the limiting factor, traction is. That right there is why they put MFWD on tractors.

 

[ovrszd]

I don't believe I would call it a war by any means just a difference of opinion. I don't believe you have proven your position to the point that the wear and tear on the front wheel components would fail any more or less prematurely regardless if I left my tractor in 4 wheel drive full time or not. We are talking about a machine that is unlikely to reach 10,000 miles in its entire life span. The majority of your assessment is based on your comparison and experience with 4 wheel drive and off road jeeps & etcetera. I don't see the connection to the degeneration of 4 wheel drive components of and agricultural tractor capable of 20 miles and hour with a lifespan of less than 10,000 miles and a vehicle capable of 70 miles an hour and a life span of 200,000 miles that spends 90% of its life on asphalt

I don't 4 wheel my Jeeps at 70 mph over 200,000 miles. I 4 wheel at 5 mph or less for very few miles at a time and always on dirt, rocks, grass, sand, everything except pavement. I engage my 4x4 and disengage my 4x4 many, many times in an afternoon of wheeling. I just can't stand that spinning, slipping and binding caused by turning around in 4x4. If you have a MFWD tractor and that thought doesn't bother you, then by all means leave it in MFWD. Take the lever off and throw it away if you like. It's your tractor.

Yesterday I was browsing in I believe the NH forum. An owner said his tractor was making funny sounds in the front end and if he tried to move with the MFWD disengaged one front tire spun forward while the other spun backwards. If he engaged his MFWD it would turn them both the same direction when he moved but it made terrible noises and would eventually lock up and stop the tractor. I didn't ask him what he was doing when this occurred. It really didn't matter because he was asking how he should get it on the trailer. I have experienced that in my Jeeps. I will do whatever I can to reduce the chances of experiencing that with my B2910. I'll use MFWD when I need it. I'll disengage it when I don't. I can't join the people in this post that say they ALWAYS use their MFWD. I have too much experience with 4x4 systems to condone that.

If all of the debate on this subject hasn't at least made you consider that it might be hard on your tractor's driveline to drive around in MFWD all the time that you are not on pavement, then for you the discussion is over.

And I assure you the axles, gears, bearings, etc., in my Jeeps are bigger, stronger and tougher than the front driveline of your B7800. Lastly I'm a military guy and the word war is used to describe anything that results in two opposing sides. This certainly applies.

 

[Timber]

LOL yea I have had enough of this thread and I agree my argument is done that is why I deleted that last post, After I read it over and thought I was a little too aggressive in my position. We have come around full circle. I was a big off roader years ago but I was a dune buggy guy. I love 2 wheel drives in the dirt but that is another subject. This was a great tread, I had fun Thank You and I hold my stand but you did bring things to my attention I didn't consider but it is unlikely I will change my behavior

 

[ovrszd]

LOL yea I have had enough of this thread and I agree my argument is done that is why I deleted that last post, After I read it over and thought I was a little too aggressive in my position. We have come around full circle. I was a big off roader years ago but I was a dune buggy guy. I love 2 wheel drives in the dirt but that is another subject. This was a great tread, I had fun Thank You and I hold my stand but you did bring things to my attention I didn't consider but it is unlikely I will change my behavior

And I certainly don't expect you to change your behavior. I don't expect anyone to change their behavior or their views. If we all thought alike we wouldn't spend two minutes talking to each other, let alone multiple days and hundreds of posts. I learn something every time I enter a discussion. That's why I do it.

 

[dfkrug]

Just last week a friend of my brother took his JD 4410 tractor out of 4 wheel drive because he did not want to forget to take it out when he got onto the blacktop. As he was traveling on a logging road headed off a hill it broke traction and slid about 50 feet, hit a dirt bank and rolled, coming to rest on its side. Just shows what can happen when someone thinks they don't need 4 wheel drive.

When I was a newbie, I almost did this. I have a paved road and
parking area, and VERY hilly terrain in the mountains. I forgot to put
my old Kubota L2550DT back into 4WD after leaving the pavement and
lost traction going down a hill. Thankfully only my load got damaged.
There are 2 safety devices of great use to mountain tractor users: 4WD
and HST. Both are tremendous help for stopping.

I think that if you are likely to forget switching into 4WD and you have
steep slopes, it may be advisable to ALWAYS be in 4WD mode.

 

[broomjob]

When I was a newbie, I almost did this. I have a paved road and
parking area, and VERY hilly terrain in the mountains. I forgot to put
my old Kubota L2550DT back into 4WD after leaving the pavement and
lost traction going down a hill. Thankfully only my load got damaged.
There are 2 safety devices of great use to mountain tractor users: 4WD
and HST. Both are tremendous help for stopping.

I think that if you are likely to forget switching into 4WD and you have
steep slopes, it may be advisable to ALWAYS be in 4WD mode.

dfkrug, Bravo to you, that was exactly the answer that the original thread poster must have been looking for. If you have hills and you use 2wd you will eventually forget to engage 4wd and you might not survive the outcome. On my property, I have a "Engage 4wd" sign at the end of my driveway. That way I am reminded to shift into 4wd when I return from the pavement.

To me 4wd is like a seatbelt, if you dont have it on all the time, it will be off when you need it most.

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. I actually had to go back and re-read the thread to pick all that back up.

I'm not sure at this point that we can add anything.. .. the info, as was posted above, and sumamrized here has been re-hased abot 3 times now...

Soundguy

Yep, that was our first stand Soundguy. Then all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractor jumped on us. Then we responded with examples of why that causes extra wear and tear on the front end. Then all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractor jumped on us again about how it couldn't possibly cause extra wear and tear or the manufacturer wouldn't have included it. Then we responded with use it when you need it. But by then the "war" was on and all of those that instantly engage their MFWD when they crank their tractors were entrenched and ready to argue even the most obvious point.

This has certainly been a good thread though and has shed some definate light on each participants experience level with such equipment and offered some excellent and some not so excellent advice. Which is the ultimate goal of this forum!!! So it's a win/win!!!

 

[RobJ]

On my property, I have a "Engage 4wd" sign at the end of my driveway.

Now I have to ask...you really have a sign that says this? Mine says "Don't forget to tip staff".

Seems there should be more...

Engage 4wd
fasten seatbelt
raise rops
lower bucket
put seat trays up
keep hands inside the operator area
check cell phone
take pulse
put on thinking cap
zip up pants


Ok maybe a billboard. Just kidding.

 

[broomjob]

Now I have to ask...you really have a sign that says this? Mine says "Don't forget to tip staff".

Seems there should be more...

Engage 4wd
fasten seatbelt
raise rops
lower bucket
put seat trays up
keep hands inside the operator area
check cell phone
take pulse
put on thinking cap
zip up pants



Ok maybe a billboard. Just kidding.

Thanks for the suggestions, the only one I might add is "zip up pants" but I would include "slowly and carefully"