50/55hp utility tractor comparisons - specs all over the map

[DieselBound]

OK, first post for me.

I'm in the process of shopping for some more HP (currently have an Kubota B7800 - I've put 900 hrs on it after buying it 5.5 years ago with 748 hrs). I figure 50hp to 50hp is about what I need and can afford. Must have HST.

Background on why I'm here (now), why this post:

I only had two dealers which were responsive. Of these two I have been able to check out three different brands. Those brands are: Kioti, Kubota and Mahindra.

My very first view glimpse of Mahindra's offerings was a 2014(? engine date showed 2014) model year 2555. Right away I noticed a wire harness hanging down from just in front of the rear axle. Not sure if this unit isn't prepped well, but this raises red flags for me. The loader control is really poorly positioned: dealer said that one could relocate it- makes one wonder how they could allows this kind of engineering decision to make it out the door! This unit has been sitting on their lot for quite a while and the salesman is clearly chomping at the bit to move it.

The Mahindra dealer also sells Kioti (or, if you prefer the other way around, the Kioti dealer also sells Mahindras). I got a peak at an NX4510 that was being assembled. It had a cab. Pretty impressive. Of course, 45hp isn't enough so I got a quote for the NX5510 (no cab). Lots of niceties. Rough quote comes out to about $4000 more than the Mahindra, and about the same as for the Kubota.

Lastly, and I was trying to avoid looking at them, was the Kubota. I have a Kubota and have been more than impressed with its ability to stand up to utter abuse (though I maintain it well). Knowing that landing another Kubota would mean ponying up a bunch more dollars (when I'm already looking at the pain of shelling out tens of thousands of dollars) made me hesitant to look. The dealer, not the one I got my current Kubota from (I'm going to see about a quote from them), was very responsive and allowed me to operate an MX5200. This machine is very similar to my B7800 in that it's a totally no-frills machine. Everything is tucked up pretty well and looks to be fairly well safeguarded: mind you, I've managed to get crap jammed up in the core frame of my B7800, popping off the hydraulic return hose! (not sure if I'd be four-wheeling with a bigger tractor, but I never thought I'd be doing what I've been doing with my smaller one either) The quote I got for this was about $4000 more than for the Mahindra: included was one rear remote, which is standard on the Mahindra but not on the Kubota. I've got a lot of stuff to look after and I really can't afford to have things breaking on me (if something is going to break then it'll break on me!).

Usage is a combination of loader stuff, mowing and a bit of dirt work (grading). I've got 40 acres (mixed woods and grass- soft ground, which is why I went with my B7800 originally).

End of background.

While comparing the specs of these tractors -Kioti NX55, Kubota MX5200 and Mahindra 2555- I see quite a variance among the specs for hydraulics. The Kioti NX5510 has the highest total pump output/flow at 17.9 gpm, but the Mahindra 2555 with 14.7 total gpm rates their 3pt and loader capacities higher, and significantly more so. Maybe I'm not understanding something here, but greater pump flow and equal HP would seem to be what would come out on top would it not? I see that the 2555's cycle times are slower, does that have any bearing? The Kubota MX5200 comes out at the bottom (they rate 3pt at 500mm though, so this spec can't be compared to the 2555's rating at the pins), and with less HP I can understand, but it's considerably less, so much so that I have to wonder whether someone is grossly misstating specs.

I am not sure what kind of loader performance I really need, other than it's good to have as much power as possible because I'll find a reason to use it. I don't do loader work on a regular basis, but will be wanting power to move around pallets (filled with wood, seasoned and dry- right now my B7800 can barely lift one, let alone stack!).

3pt lift abilities is less important for me than loader abilities. I think that even the lowest spec-d of the bunch, the Kubota, has sufficient capacity.

PTO HP is pretty much even across the board.

It appears that Kioti doesn't split out their power steering and I'm wondering if that presents any issues. I can see that it could be a plus having more pump flow for other stuff if not turning, though I'm not sure (straight line stuff).

On somewhat of a tangent, I'm very hesitant to go with anything DPF/DEF. It's one reason why I decided to look at Mahindra. My other thought is to consider something a couple years older: MX5100 perhaps; not sure about Kioti.

 

[jeff9366]

When looking at tractors the first thing that interests me is bare tractor WEIGHT. A heavier tractor can do heavier work and is more stable while doing so. A heavier tractor has thicker steel which equates to more strength.

For almost everything task you have specified tractor weight is more important than the other specs you have prioritized. When you get your new tractor, likely X2 or X3 times the weight of your B7800, the weight will be a REVELATION.

Second priority is PTO horsepower.

Everything else follows.


Be sure to order SSQA (Skid Steer Quick Attach) attachment for your FEL. SSQA allows fast change of loader attachments, but more importantly devotes all of FEL capacity to lift. If you buy attachments that clamp to the bucket, as opposed to SSQA, the bucket is dead weight, subtracted from FEL capacity to lift.

Kubota offers Heavy-Duty Round-Back Loader Buckets, all with SSQA. HD buckets weigh approximately 100 pounds more than standard bucket, all steel and all strength. As you are focused on loader functions I recommend the optional HD Bucket.

I also recommend a Ratchet Rake bucket attachment. One of the best tractor attachments for tearing out brush and subsequently piling brush. I always have Ratchet Rake on my bucket when my Rotary Cutter is on the Three Point Hitch. The Ratchet Rake is far more effective than a bare bucket at knocking down brush. It is much easier on your Rotary/Cutter to chop up horizontal brush. Ratchet Rake is also excellent for light grading. I use mine for ground prep in my garden where it substitutes for a spike tooth harrow for smoothing.

Ratchet Rakes are sold by the T-B-N store, among other venders. Delivery by convenient FedEx.

In 18-hp to 60-hp tractor category, Kubota has 50% market share. Off a small base, Korean brands are the fastest growing brands, with Kioti and LS being the Korean leaders. Mahindra equates to 'no frills' both in technology and finish to T-B-N contributors.

I am not price sensitive. I want the optimum machine if I will be sitting on it 250 engine hours per year. Whatever premium you pay, you will recover part of the outlay at time of selling. Buy what you want.

There is nothing wrong with a well maintained, one-owner, used tractor. However, you will find prices for used Tier III tractors have increased because of demand. Others share your reservations about Tier iV. The price of L3560/Tier IV was $4,000 more than L3540/Tier III, however L3560 was pretty much a total design upgrade.

 

[DieselBound]

Jeff, thanks for the quick reply.

Yes, I learned that weight can make a big difference. My B7800 is/was insanely light. It wasn't until after several years that I got ballast put in the rears. I typically hang something off the back: have a great, very heavy box blade. After the ballast I was able to get into places that I'd have otherwise had to use 4wd with/on: I ran in 2wd and tried to get stuck in places that I would have in the past gotten stuck in while in 2wd- didn't really happen. Last summer I got a 9k lbs excavator stuck in an area that I'd just had the B7800 in: still not sure why something with less ground pressure could get stuck whereas something with more didn't, so perhaps more ground pressure IS the thing? And then on the other hand I have some massive ruts from heavy machines being on the property, so too much weight can cause problems: ruts over 18"! (spent time working a lot of these flat) While one can add weight, it's a bit harder to take it back off.

I'd have to say that the majority of my work is mowing. Weight isn't all that important here.

Loader work is kind of a mixture. I do have an absolute need to move around my pallets of wood. My B7800 is able to, just barely, move them and do so without popping up the rear end: the ballast plus an implement hanging off the rear does the job. I'd like to be able to lift two of these, something which the B7800 could never do, and I'd figure that any of the tractors I'm looking at can do this: I suppose "how well" is the question- the Mahindra's "at the pins" specs are huge, but 37% more than the Kubota's loader? If anything I'd have to say that breakout force would be more meaningful to/for me: but I don't know how much I going to be looking at digging/prying at stumps and such like I've done with the B7800 (it get into places and, though not the best shovel, does a fair job of digging with a tooth bar on it).

Grading work would come in a fairly distant third. Would I be doing more if I had a more appropriate machine for the work? Maybe.

I'm really not sure to what extent I'd try pushing another, bigger tractor. My B7800 has been literally thrown into the brush (I've ridden on top of logs and crap). And a big reason why I cannot dismiss a lighter tractor such as the Kubotas is because of how well the B7800 has withstood so much: broke the seat mount; blew out a loader arm hydraulic cylinder (years ago); that's about it after 900 hours of being pushed extremely hard. In order to look away from Kubota I'm going to need some pretty compelling reasons.

 

[jeff9366]

I don't know how much I going to be looking at digging/prying at stumps and such like I've done with the B7800 (it get into places and, though not the best shovel, does a fair job of digging with a tooth bar on it).

With a heavier tractor, using a Sub-soiler to cut the roots of tree stumps may become your standard operating procedure.

LINK: Subsoilers | Tufline

VIDEO: TRACTOR SUBSOILER STUMPS - YouTube

 

[jeff9366]

RE: FEL

As important as hydraulic capacity, possibly more important, is tractor engineer's design decision about FEL geometry.

FEL geometry can be designed to lift heavy, but not high; or high but less heavy.

Some tractors have an FEL pin adjustment that allows the operator to choose between two FEL geometries to match the days task.



((You are right, no one certifies nor audits claimed tractor specs, however Nebraska tests all tractor models sold in the state and publishes the results.))

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Flow is NOT hp. flow is speed...

The size of the cylinders in the rear, psi of the pump and the mechanical advantage in the 3 point system = the hp... at least in this case...

SR

 

[LD1]

IF your primary task is mowing, look at the turning radius and length also.

Other than that....tractors are pretty close in weight (another consideration for mowing.) kubota the lightest at 3700-3800#, Mahindra at 4050#, and kioti NX just a tad more. So I'd scratch bare weight off the list on these three, as there is only a few hundred pounds different.

Forget about 3PH lift capacity also. They are all similar by the time you account for kubotas spec @ 24". And as you said, they are all more than adequate.

Unless you plan to run hydraulic implements in the future......hydraulic flow is of little concern IMO. Flow only dictates how fast the loader operates.

No surprise here that the mahindra is spec'd the highest in lift capacity.....but its also the slowest. It has the same pump flow as the kubota, but larger cylinders most likely. Give it more lift force, at a proportionally reduced speed. Kioti is in the middle between the kubota and mahindra for power, as well as speed.

...............Kubota..............Kioti....................Mahindra
Raise.........4.4s................4.5s........................6.0s
Lower........3.0s................2.8s.........................4.0s
Curl..........2.4s.................3.0s........................3.2s
Dump........1.9s.................4.1s.......................4.9s

Now I have never operated the kioti or mahindra, but seems that the dump and curl would be painstakingly slow, if trying to do alot of work quickly. BUT, if you need the loader capacity to lift what you have..........

I can say, with my MX5100, that I have never ran out of loader power yet. But have lifted a back tire in the air even with the 1600+# woods DS96 mower sticking way back there. Which kinda surprised me. But I dont have loaded tires yet either.

I guess what I am saying is....unless you plan on loaded tires AND ~1500# of something hanging off the back.....then you are gonna probably run out of ballast on any of them tractors before you run out of loader capacity, since they are all pretty close in weight and physical dimensions.

At the end of the day, they are all pretty close and will all likely do what you want. The decision should be based more on what tractor fits YOU best, and what dealer you are comfortable with, and NOT which one specs the best. Specs mean nothing if you dont enjoy operating the tractor and its ergonomically uncomfortable for you.

 

[sikmusicfreak8]

Don't discount the Korean tractors. When I was shopping, Deere, MF, and Kubota were outrageously priced, didn't weigh as much, less capacities, etc. I was about to pay a premium for a name only. Not saying any of them aren't good tractors, but price and performance is king for me.

At your HP range, you'll want the weight to utilize that tractor. And it's easy to build a heavy ballast box when forking your wood around, that's my suggestion.

 

[jenkinsph]

Don't discount the Korean tractors. When I was shopping, Deere, MF, and Kubota were outrageously priced, didn't weigh as much, less capacities, etc. I was about to pay a premium for a name only. Not saying any of them aren't good tractors, but price and performance is king for me.

At your HP range, you'll want the weight to utilize that tractor. And it's easy to build a heavy ballast box when forking your wood around, that's my suggestion.

While I agree that weight is important and is needed for high traction jobs it is not the only consideration. You can buy a heavy crude casting and not have the benefits of a lighter and better design casting. I would also point out that some tractor work is best done with a lighter tractor and Kubota comes to mind, you can add simple weights to the same tractor if needed. To clarify I am saying that there is more to buying a tractor than simple casting weights.

 

[sikmusicfreak8]

While I agree that weight is important and is needed for high traction jobs it is not the only consideration. You can buy a heavy crude casting and not have the benefits of a lighter and better design casting. I would also point out that some tractor work is best done with a lighter tractor and Kubota comes to mind, you can add simple weights to the same tractor if needed. To clarify I am saying that there is more to buying a tractor than simple casting weights.

Definitely countless other considerations, he just seems to need to fork heavy items, and discussed traction issues/getting stuck.

 

[SethWilliams]

I purchased a 2555 this spring and I am incredibly happy with it. The loader is very strong, much stronger than the kubota. Also, as others have stated, weight is very important. Even with a box blade on the back I can easily lift the back tires if I'm not careful.

I recently loaded a squeeze chute in the back of my truck to return to a buddy, and my tractor handled it no problem with the box blade as a ballast. I also have my tires loaded. My buddy has an MX5800, and he had a bush hog on the back. Not sure if his tires are loaded or not, but he could hardly pick it up without his back tires coming off the ground. He was only able to lift it an inch or two off my bed and I had to drive out, where my tractor was able to set it in the bed.

I also love not having to worry about tier 4 requirements. There are some issues that have been noted in the Mahindra forum, and even though I only have 40 hours on mine, I have had zero issues so far. I also got a loader extension put on by the dealer at no extra cost, and now it works great.

You can probably see the extension in the picture below.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

comparing specs becomes more useless every year. The amount of ways companies seem to cook the books on the spec sheets seems to increase every year. No is no replacement for getting your butt in the seat and running the machine.

 

[holeycow]

Yep, Nebrasca has the solution to that.

 

[DieselBound]

comparing specs becomes more useless every year. The amount of ways companies seem to cook the books on the spec sheets seems to increase every year. No is no replacement for getting your butt in the seat and running the machine.

Yeah, it's becoming like the phrase "security through obscurity!"

It's a bit unfair in that I have only tried out the MX5200. Felt pretty familiar, to my B7800, just bigger. Kubota bias I won't deny: it's warranted given the proven performance of over 900 hours of seat time on my B7800. BUT, I'm not known to be "brand loyal."

I did not like the loader joystick position on the Mahindra. Apparently I'm not the only person that the salesperson had heard that from, in which case he responded pretty quickly that one could relocated it down. Yeah, if that was all I needed to do then no biggie! So, not a show stopper. But, when coupled with the view of a hanging wire (and connector) underneath the tractor these things didn't leave me with a steller impression; and if things were priced the same I'd have ceased to consider it.

The point about things hanging out and snagging and breaking is BIG to me. So much so that when I looked at some New Hollands (out on the lot, by myself) first thing I spotted was an hydraulic block that stuck out to the side totally exposed I completely ruled them out. Not even a question of whether I'd have that damaged in short order! I've literally had my B7800 on top of a stump which I'd managed to dig all the way around (it was like a moat and I was on an island with the tractor!). My B7800 has only ever left me stranded once: salmon berry cane folded over underneath the tractor and manged to flip back up inside the frame's channel and shove the hydraulic return line's hose off a pipe (one of the times when one would have liked to have a non-HST tractor!).

To deal with my fears with SCR I've stepped back and am considering a used MX5100 (someone mentioned this). I feel that this more readily levels the playing field with the Mahindra 2555 (though it's 55hp vs 50hp): the lack of DPF/DEF was the big reason why I considered the Mahindra. I have older VW TDIs and am quite versed in EGR issues; the issues on newer CR and DPF/DEF [SCR] (though VW didn't go that route, and is now clear what the price for not doing so is!) keeps me from stepping forward with technology. I suppose if the newer Kubotas or the Kiotis (with SCR) had a big advantage then I might be more accepting.

So, as the thread really started out to be about, it's really the loader differences that have me really pondering here: Mahindra's loader joy stick could be moved, and I could probably help tuck away any of the hanging stuff. Seth's story is real world, and that's what I really appreciate. However, I know that I will ALWAYS find that I am underpowered for something; if I were to get the Mahindra 2555 I know that I'd be posting here at some point on what I wasn't able to do with it. I've always said that if I needed more power that I'd go rent it: I go out and rent excavators because they have the power and function that I need, but it's for only certain projects and I don't need their capabilities all the time (though, excavators are REALLY cool! I rent a Takeuchi 285 and that thing is an awesome machine!). And my mentioning of the Takeuchi, sorry if I'm appearing to be muddling the topic here, is that it's hydraulics are extremely smooth: I've rented Bobcats and didn't like the hydraulics, not real smooth (you have to be good in order to not have the thing jerking all over the place). Having put over 900 hours on my Kubota B7800 I can say that the hydraulics on it are pretty decent (for a low end machine). I suppose that I could see that quicker operation can also make for jerkier movements, meaning that the Mahindra's slower loader operation COULD make it feel smoother (comfort vs speed trade-off?)

So, is Mahinda really putting 37% more loader power out there -"to the ground"- than Kubota (and a high percentage more than Kioti)? Is Kubota de-rating the loader based on a lighter tractor weight (350 lbs less, which isn't 37% less)? Is Mahindra over-rating and possibly compromising their tractor frames (or the loader itself)? If we were talking something along the lines of 10% or so I wouldn't really be so puzzled.

I work my B7800 really fast. A slower loader might be a bit more frustrating for me. But, with a bigger tractor (more capacity) perhaps I would be working slower anyways?

jeff9366, thanks for the notes. I've had a tooth bar on my B7800 and it gets used a LOT: I've managed to use it to break up some massive debris piles, moving around tree trunks that are several times the weight of the tractor. Also have a subsoiler, well, if I take off the plow piece (middle buster plow), but have never used it to break up roots: I use my box blade's rippers to chisel away at roots, and other than the time I was stupid and was doing that with the rippers all the way down (had them down to "till" up a garden spot), it's worked well: that stump, a cedar, I got out with the big excavator; stump split up about 60%/40% and I was only able to pick up the 40% chunk (probably about 3k lbs) with the excavator. Running the Takeuchi 285 made me well aware of what power and weight mean

As it stands now I'd have to say that my work is:

60% mowing (my B7800 with a 5' field mower is getting dwarfed)
30% lifting/bucket work (I now NEED to be able to move pallet loads of firewood; the B7800 can but just get them up off the ground, it cannot stack- I'd like to be able to stack two at the same time, but that ain't necessary- I'm not in the firewood business, so it's not a huge need; hauling single pallets, though, to the house will be more frequent [and in the wet winters here I don't want to be tearing the crap out of things]; in the future I expect that I'll be needing to move some round bales, though not on any large scale)
10% dirt work (stumps; leveling etc)

I figure that with a different tractor that those percentages could/would shift around a bit. If the tractor was a big hammer then I'd probably be doing a lot of nailing!

Again, I really appreciate folks taking the time to discuss this with me. I suppose that I'm trying to help solidify what I really NEED vs what I'd WANT: most of what I have is basic, no-frills, in which case I cannot find the justification for anything fancy (if money were no object then sure).

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Kubota MX is a great place to start. Amazing power and pure guts. Definitely a contender for any tractor use in that hp range. You won't be disappointed.

 

[jeff9366]

RE: Post #14

The only significant change from Post #1 is your numerical definition of tractor tasks as 60% mowing, 30% loader work and 10% Three Point Hitch work.

I think you have learned about all T-B-N can offer you. Its time to sally forth from the computer and climb on tractors.

I would stop by the Kubota dealer and tell them you are interested in a used MX5100. If someone is ready to trade in a used MX5100 on another Kubota it likely would make the transaction easier to the seller, the Kubota dealer and you.

My local Kubota dealer does not take trade ins, UNLESS he has a customer lined up for the incoming used tractor prior to closing the transaction. He is perfectly happy to put the seller in contact with a third party and stay out of a two party negotiation. I sold my B3300SU this way.

Start to look on Craig's List and eBay.

If you are still undecided in February considered attending the Spokane Ag Expo. Perusing the exhibitor's list, many tractor manufacturers will be there. Ag Expo > Greater Spokane Incorporated

I attend the gigantic Sunbelt Ag Expo in Moultrie, Georgia most years. Every tractor manufacturer and most implement producers are there. You can climb on the tractors and ask questions of the reps for three days.

 

[DieselBound]

I had spotted an MX5100 listed from the dealer that I was just at (looking at the MX5200). I got in touch with them, the salesman said that he has been thinking of me, and they gave me a quote $1k less than the new MX5200. The MX5100 is an 2014 model year and has 93 hours on it. Still the old pedal layout (and still a clutch pedal). I am wanting a rear remote and can get that for a discount of $400 if I install it myself: I suppose there's no reason I couldn't do that. If I opt to install the remote then I'm looking at a total price, taxes and all, of just over $31k (this would be about $3k more than the new [2015?] Mahindra 2555 that I looked at). Not sure if the tires are ballasted, but I'd guess that if it was originally purchased from this dealer that it was: I need to check.

Thoughts?

 

[sikmusicfreak8]

Sounds high

 

[LD1]

Sounds high

Agreed.

Just bought a mx5100 w/340 hrs, ssqa loader, r1 tires, HST......no remotes thought....for $20k OTD. I wouldnt pay 50% more for a few hundred less hours and a single remote to install myself

 

[Steppenwolfe]

I had spotted an MX5100 listed from the dealer that I was just at (looking at the MX5200). I got in touch with them, the salesman said that he has been thinking of me, and they gave me a quote $1k less than the new MX5200. The MX5100 is an 2014 model year and has 93 hours on it. Still the old pedal layout (and still a clutch pedal). I am wanting a rear remote and can get that for a discount of $400 if I install it myself: I suppose there's no reason I couldn't do that. If I opt to install the remote then I'm looking at a total price, taxes and all, of just over $31k (this would be about $3k more than the new [2015?] Mahindra 2555 that I looked at). Not sure if the tires are ballasted, but I'd guess that if it was originally purchased from this dealer that it was: I need to check.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I think the price is high. 93 hours is nothing, but the tractor, I'm assuming with qa fel, should be more like 27k. look on tractor house, etc for comparable pricing. Then, beat the dealer up. Don't know anything about the Mahindra, except it is not a Kubota.