58 MPG by 2032

[Richard001]

Yeah, I can see and understand that concern, but I'm not really worried. In the cities, there's simply not enough roof space, so all of the major population centers will remain dependent on the grid and utility-scale power generation.

Additionally, anyone who has driven an EV knows they will inevitably dominate the market simply because they are a better product. (Many will disagree with me about that, and I can predict with certainty that those who disagree most loudly will turn out to have no experience with EVs.)

Well that maybe true, but you don't have to fall off of the top of three story building to know that hitting the ground will hurt.

That means demand for electricity is likely to increase rather than decrease. The increase will be mostly in off-peak times, so initially it won't require scaling up production or beefing up the grid, but eventually demand will outstrip supply in urban & suburban areas.

If more of the grid electricity comes from utility-scale solar farms or windmills, that will simply lower the cost, because solar and wind are already cheaper than any fossil fuel.

From: Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia

Rating's from the: US NREL (US National Renewable Energy Laboratory)

Natural gas $922–2,630 per KW
Wind power $1,462 per KW
Solar photovoltaic $1,333-2,743 per KW

Hydro is still cheapest. Nuclear is more expensive, but probably necessary because the sun doesn't shine at night and sometimes the wind stop blowing.

 

[nickfank]

You are correct that I said: "encouraging the development of alternatives can only increase our freedom."

How you interpreted that to mean "you would like to trade global oil companies for authoritarian tech companies." is beyond me.

I'm happy to have a spirited debate, but please disagree with what I actually said rather than something you made up.

 

[nickfank]

How will close sourced software designed by giant tech corporations increase your freedom? These companies have already proven by past behavior they care zero about your freedom and will do anything they can to mine your data and attempt to influence society. I would say that the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. First thing I do when I get a new PC/laptop is wipe windos and install Linux, first thing I dowhen I get a new router is wipe the OS and install OpenWrt first thing I do when I get a new cell phone is wipe the OS and install a custom ROM with no Google spyware tracking apps. Give me a electric car that will let me anonymously travel and I may not be against the technology.

Chuckle! I run linux for my development work and use a rooted android. I use ddwrt instead of openwrt, but we're in the same ballpark there. You're preaching to the choir. (Although I have to admit that I often use Ubuntu for our company servers, which gets a tech company involved, and I am on a windows box right now because I have to support customers who use that platform.)

You may also recall that several posts back, I suggested that if you have this concern about EVs, you can just disconnect the antenna, as I have done in my two EVS. So yes, my EVs travel anonymously.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

You are correct that I said: "encouraging the development of alternatives can only increase our freedom."

How you interpreted that to mean "you would like to trade global oil companies for authoritarian tech companies." is beyond me.

I'm happy to have a spirted debate, but please disagree with what I actually said rather than something you made up.

Is the software in your car open sourced? Can you edit the code? Exactly what I thought. Your "freedom" is 100% reliant on giant tech companies. Diesel/petro is freedom you can carry in a freaking can. I can put it in a fuel tank and drive to where ever the frick I want and no one can say or do anything about it. I'm not geo tracked the entire way. Hopefully you dont say the wrong thing on tweeter and anger the tech gods enough to shut your car off.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Chuckle! I run linux for my development work and use a rooted android. I use ddwrt instead of openwrt, but we're in the same ballpark there. You're preaching to the choir. (Although I have to admit that I often use Ubuntu for our company servers, which gets a tech company involved, and I am on a windows box right now because I have to support customers who use that platform.)

You may also recall that several posts back, I suggested that if you have this concern about EVs, you can just disconnect the antenna, as I have done in my two EVS. So yes, my EVs travel anonymously.

Have not used windows in 20 years except of a single old netbook with nothing but autoenginuity on it that I use for my 7.3 powerstroke. I run Gentoo on everything. OpenWrt is my access point and OPNsense on a old dual core atom is my router/firewall. Just disconnect the antenna LMAO ok

 

[nickfank]

Well that maybe true, but you don't have to fall off of the top of three story building to know that hitting the ground will hurt.

I'm guessing you know this because at some point in your life, you fell. You might have even fallen from a higher point and realized it hurt more. Then, being a smart person, you drew some reasonable conclusions.

Or maybe you were born with this knowledge... I'm imperfect, so I learn from my experience and from observing the experience of others.

I observed that EV drivers were happy. I observed that the people who don't like EVs have rarely tried them. So I tried one, and three years later, I bought a second EV.

When you've got some experience with an EV, I'll take you seriously.

 

[nickfank]

Have not used windows in 20 years except of a single old netbook with nothing but autoenginuity on it that I use for my 7.3 powerstroke. I run Gentoo on everything. OpenWrt is my access point and OPNsense on a old dual core atom is my router/firewall. Just disconnect the antenna LMAO ok

OK, I get it, you've got serious geek cred! Should have tossed an arduino reference in there just to be complete! <grin>

Seriously, though, explain to me how I'm being tracked in a car with the network antenna disconnected.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Look up "the find" (which is over 20 years old now) tracking. if you think you are defeating big tech by disconnecting a antenna I have a alexa to sell you.

 

[nickfank]

From: Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia

Rating's from the: US NREL (US National Renewable Energy Laboratory)

Natural gas $922–2,630 per KW
Wind power $1,462 per KW
Solar photovoltaic $1,333-2,743 per KW

Those numbers you're quoting don't make sense in this context. kW is a measurement of power generation capacity.

If you're measuring the cost of energy, the unit is kWh (or MWh if you're going big.) When you pay your electric bill, they are billing you for the number of kilowatt hours you've used. When you operate an electric car, your mileage is measured in miles/kWh.

What the numbers you are quoting measure is the capital cost for building generation facilities.

You were almost there though- Try reading this article, which is about LCOE, which is "a measure of the average net present cost of electricity for a generator over its lifetime. " Levelized cost of electricity - Wikipedia

Specifically, take a look at the graph at the top of the article:

Levelized cost of electricity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[nickfank]

Look up "the find" (which is over 20 years old now) tracking. if you think you are defeating big tech by disconnecting a antenna I have a alexa to sell you.

I thought I was overly paranoid because I disconnected the antennas. But you're definitely tipping over into foil hat territory. I don't think big tech cares that much about me.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

I thought I was overly paranoid because I disconnected the antennas. But you're definitely tipping over into foil hat territory. I don't think big tech cares that much about me.

Don't care. Done with this conversation. Enjoy your life and live it how you want. I will do the same. See ya.

 

[SUBSAILOR]

58 MPG​

Seeking to cut greenhouse gas emissions, the B i d e n administration has issued a proposal directing automakers to raise the fuel economy of their vehicles to a fleet-wide average of 58 miles per gallon by 2032. The proposed rules by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would be applicable starting in model year 2027, while new fuel efficiency standards for heavy-duty pickup trucks and vans would rise 10% annually. The NHTSA also said it would try to align regulations with the Environmental Protection Agency's proposed vehicle emissions reductions. Many U.S. automakers are already in the middle of electrifying their fleets, but any changes could impact the plans of Ford (F), General Motors (GM) and Stellantis (STLA)

Simple fix don't vote the wrong way....and do vote!!

 

[jimux]

58 MPG​

Seeking to cut greenhouse gas emissions, the B i d e n administration has issued a proposal directing automakers to raise the fuel economy of their vehicles to a fleet-wide average of 58 miles per gallon by 2032. The proposed rules by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would be applicable starting in model year 2027, while new fuel efficiency standards for heavy-duty pickup trucks and vans would rise 10% annually. The NHTSA also said it would try to align regulations with the Environmental Protection Agency's proposed vehicle emissions reductions. Many U.S. automakers are already in the middle of electrifying their fleets, but any changes could impact the plans of Ford (F), General Motors (GM) and Stellantis (STLA)

Oh please. The Biden plan is to kill the economy of the US. Why else would you bury any alternative to windmills and sun dried raisins? That is Trump you hear trying to save your freedom.

 

[jimux]

Why does not DC try this law: the US will be debt free by 2032. All it takes is the bill to be passed.

Guess I best be visiting the mountains all I want too before then. Uphill may not be optional.

Will your tractor run on beet juice? You think the used tractor market is bad now...wait till you recharge your digital credit for that electric tractor. Haha. Laughs on US.

 

[jimux]

The powers are trying to kill the largest economy in the world, in the name of global warming. Why else would they bury any alternatives in regulations...except for windmills and sun dried raisins?

 

[WinterDeere]

Give me a electric car that will let me anonymously travel and I may not be against the technology.

Lol... your life must be infinitely more interesting than mine, if you think anyone cares where you drive your car.

Today I dropped off yard waste, picked up compost and fertilizer, and then some flag stone. If anyone was watching, I feel terribly sorry for them.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Lol... your life must be infinitely more interesting than mine, if you think anyone cares where you drive your car.

Today I dropped off yard waste, picked up compost and fertilizer, and then some flag stone. If anyone was watching, I feel terribly sorry for them.

No one was watching you. Except AI You are wildly unimportant to anyone that matters but they do love to mine your data and sell your personal information. I prefer to keep my information to myself and those I voluntarily share it with. You may be different but I'm not one of those "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be worried about" people.What I do is none of anyones business.

 

[lman]

A few observations after scanning this entertaining thread:

1. Partisan politics appear to be the main form of entertainment for many folks... Even those who have the option to be outside on a tractor enjoying life. That's weird and sad.
2. The laws of physics don't care about politics. It's getting hotter, and buying a republican thermometer or a democrat thermometer won't change that.
3. Math doesn't care about politics. Whether you're a libertarian or a socialist, 23+114+120 divided by 3 = 85 2/3. (See below for why I chose those numbers.)
4. If you're a person who claims to value personal freedom, it's bizarre to also be a shill for the fossil fuel industry. The fact of the matter is that you are dependent on them every day of your life. Worse, the (global) fossil fuel companies buy the politicians and the politicians spend your tax money to support them... But at the end of the day, you pay whatever price they agree on on to fuel your vehicles & equipment, and **you have no other option**. Unless you own an oil well and a refinery, you're not a free person.
5. However, if you actually want to be an independent and free person, you *can* own a solar array or windmill & electric vehicles.
6. The up-front cost to use electric vehicles is steep, but in the long run it's cheaper... And more importantly, you're no longer controlled by the government or fuel companies. (That's why they're working so hard to get you all angry about electric cars and renewables... If renewables weren't already a cheaper and more viable alternative, they'd have no reason to fight so hard. Use your common sense and this becomes obvious.)

On my barn is a 16Kw solar array. Two of my three vehicles are electric. Yes, they were expensive, but when I charge them off the barn array, they cost $0.02 per mile to operate. Even if I have to completely replace the batteries at 100K miles, I've still saved money. Inflation? I don't care... my 2 cent/mile cost is locked in for the next 30+ years because I own the fuel source. That's actual personal freedom, no politics involved.

Getting back to the original post, when I average the mpg on the gas car (23) and the equivalent mpg on the EVs (120 & 114), I'm already at 85mpg average. I didn't do that because a politician required me to, I did it because I can do math and I value freedom.

This conversation would make a lot more sense if everyone would put away their obsession with politics and just do the math.

**Edit: When someone posted about the road-use taxes included in gas & diesel, I realized that I had not included taxes in my 2 cents/mile. I should have included that to make the comparison fair, since everyone else pays road-use tax as part of their fuel expense. In Ohio, EVs pay a $200 annual surcharge at registration to replace the revenue that they would have gotten from the per-gallon tax on gas or diesel. I'm a typical driver with about 15,000 miles/year, so that brings my "fuel" cost up to $0.033/mile including the road tax.

Did I miss the cost of your solar system as a factor in the cost of your transportation or were your panels free.

 

[Bentrim]

A few things to think about----
1.Government can and does control what you do and purchase by -- Making current technology too expensive or controls the amount available for the consumer to purchase. For example limits the amount of available motor fuels by legislating for "cleaner" emissions.
Buys up (with your tax dollars) or controls the amount of fuels shipped to an area. This alone can make fuels unaffordable. Legislate emissions and efficiency for engine to a to a point manufacturers cannot reasonably meet them or it raise the price so high you cannot afford to purchase a vehicle. Example 1. incandescent light bulbs. 2. Ice emissions 3. vehicle efficiency as MPG. The VW Rabbit diesel got 50+ MPG but was killed over emissions.

2. Controlling what you purchase -- as the incandescent bulbs, "safety" fuel cans, the toilet you can purchase, the dishwasher, the range that is available, oxygenated fuels (ethanol), what weed killer you purchase, must be included treatment system for vehicle exhaust, the starter rope attachment on your push mower, the reverse switch on your riding mower, the back up alarm on equipment, and on and on. Small pickups were killed because of fuel mileage.

3. Any computer controlled vehicle can be shut down by law enforcement -- ask the criminal that got shut down.

4. Trying to convince you that EV's are pollution free. Guess the mining and transport of raw material doesn't pollute? or the manufacturing? or the fossil fuel used to generate the electric to manufacture and recharge? or the tire dust from the heavier EV's? Just read an article that New York city has had more battery caused fires which have caused more deaths than the Corvair caused nationwide. Thanks Ralph time for an sequel.

If it sounds like I am trying to pick a fight -- Nope. Just get tired of people polishing the fender to a bright luster when the engine belches smoke and the frame is rotted thru.

And one parting word -- Get out and vote, but before you do be sure you know who and what you are voting for. People you vote for are responsible for the laws and regulations that become law. It is time our lawmaker stop hiding behind parties and are responsible for their own actions. By the way have you talked with your representative lately? He doesn't know your thoughts unless you tell him.

 

[Richard001]

And one parting word -- Get out and vote, but before you do be sure you know who and what you are voting for. People you vote for are responsible for the laws and regulations that become law. It is time our lawmaker stop hiding behind parties and are responsible for their own actions. By the way have you talked with your representative lately? He doesn't know your thoughts unless you tell him.

Yes, I have sent him e-mails from time to time, but he is of the other party and just ignores my messages to him, so it's hopeless.