58 MPG by 2032

[Grumpycat]

Still odd the Utility sends out thank you messages when consumption drops and pushes rebates for a multitude of energy saving appliances and measures.


If my business is selling electricity why would I spend money and provide incentives to customers for buying less of what I have to offer?

Because in all likelihood they are paying more than they charge you for peaking power and for buying from adjacent utilities.

 

[fatjay]

So you think the tractor dealer should sell your trade for what they paid you?

There is profit built into their 10¢, but to sell your power at 10¢ they get nothing but the bother of billing and shrinkage (loss in the power lines).

While I see your point, it's not really apples to apples. The power company gets to bill transmission without having to worry about additional generation, for existing infrastructure.

Also in a lot of areas, power companies flat out refuse to buy back power. I get it they can choose what they want to pay and receive, but it doesn't incentivize grid tie solar. All these solar companies, government programs, basically snake oil salesmen, telling you how you can't afford to NOT have solar, it's basically free! Then on page 437 of 1200 of the purchase agreement, there's one line of how much you'll be getting paid for selling to the grid. There used to be laws about truth in advertising.

But power companies were asking for this, to ease hte strain on their systems. They even created peak and off peak rates to try and make people prioritize when they use their power.

 

[ultrarunner]

Very true… the mixed signals and never ending rate increases have anyone paying a energy bill questioning.

Neighborhood is a mix with majority not customer owned.

The panels and install provided at no cost sometimes including a section of roof replacement and/or electric panel upgrade.

So far all the early adopters are ecstatic having 20 year contract to buy kW hours at less than half the now utility rate.

One of the guys said a selling point always is do you think PGE will cost more in the future or less… he said never did he think PGE increases would exceed his wildest estimate but it has.

I’m one that owns my system… no software or third party admin for my old system… simple, just the way I like it.

 

[fatjay]

I checked my power bill for august, it just came through. 19k/kwh. July it was 17c/kwh. June it was 14c/kwh. May it was 11c/kwh. Do you think it'll stop there? I don't.

They're going to be basically forcing people to install solar at these rates, i get no less than 3 phone calls a day on my cell phone trying to sell me solar and how it's such an unbelievable deal. Then once people buckle and do, without reading the fine print, their excess will be sold back at next to nothing. So it's effectively preying on the general population.

Then what about people who rent or otherwise don't have an option to install solar? They will be stuck with these insane rates and no choice.

 

[ultrarunner]

I checked my power bill for august, it just came through. 19k/kwh. July it was 17c/kwh. June it was 14c/kwh. May it was 11c/kwh. Do you think it'll stop there? I don't.

They're going to be basically forcing people to install solar at these rates, i get no less than 3 phone calls a day on my cell phone trying to sell me solar and how it's such an unbelievable deal. Then once people buckle and do, without reading the fine print, their excess will be sold back at next to nothing. So it's effectively preying on the general population.

Then what about people who rent or otherwise don't have an option to install solar? They will be stuck with these insane rates and no choice.

No as California is addressing this by income based rate structure so rate paid is tied to ability to pay in the name of equity.

Important to note this is a new program not part of low income existing discounted rates.

PG&E Joins Proposal to Set Utility Rates Based on Income | San Jose Inside

California’s electric rate, among the highest in the country, but the three biggest power companies say low-income customers will save money. Critics doubt it will work.

www.sanjoseinside.com

Reforming CA's Electric Rates for Decarbonization and Equity

NRDC and The Utility Reform Network submitted an electric rate design proposal to the California Public Utilities Commission to promote equity and encourage beneficial electrification. This is the first stage in a regulatory process to implement income-based fixed charges.

www.nrdc.org

 

[fatjay]

No as California is addressing this by income based rate structure so rate paid is tied to ability to pay in the name of equity.

Important to note this is a new program not part of low income existing discounted rates.

PG&E Joins Proposal to Set Utility Rates Based on Income | San Jose Inside

California’s electric rate, among the highest in the country, but the three biggest power companies say low-income customers will save money. Critics doubt it will work.

www.sanjoseinside.com

Reforming CA's Electric Rates for Decarbonization and Equity

NRDC and The Utility Reform Network submitted an electric rate design proposal to the California Public Utilities Commission to promote equity and encourage beneficial electrification. This is the first stage in a regulatory process to implement income-based fixed charges.

www.nrdc.org

That's the most insane thing I've read today.

 

[ultrarunner]

Stay tuned… more to come.

The most important take away is what starts in California rarely stays in California…

Local cities already have banned the sale of future new ICE vehicles ahead of Statewide even being ICE sales provide significant revenue.

These states may join California in banning the sale of gasoline cars

California is expected to officially ban the sale of gas-powered cars by 2035. Experts say more than a dozen other states may do the same.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Grumpycat]

While I see your point, it's not really apples to apples. The power company gets to bill transmission without having to worry about additional generation, for existing infrastructure.

The utility company already has the generators running and if they pay you full retail for your kWh then they were deprived of selling their kWh and making a profit.

Also in a lot of areas, power companies flat out refuse to buy back power. I get it they can choose what they want to pay and receive, but it doesn't incentivize grid tie solar.

Federal law dictates a minimum of the Audited Incremental Cost of Generation. As I said this is 1.5¢/kWh for TVA. Plus fuel surcharges. Hard to swallow, but better than throwing the power away. Problem is the cost of getting the system TVA approved.

The Federal law leaves a loophole for "connection charges". The Alabama PSC has allowed Alabama power to charge so much per kW of potential generation in monthly connection fees as to consume most of what they pay for generated power (assuming a good month). As a result there are almost no PV systems in Alabama Power's covered zones.

To add salt to the wounds, yankees have goaded many Alabama politicians into passing laws mandating occupied dwellings must connect to the utility power grid. Don't want appear to live in shanties. Off grid even with sufficient PV generation and battery storage is illegal in my county for a permanent residence.

 

[Grumpycat]

I checked my power bill for august, it just came through. 19k/kwh. July it was 17c/kwh. June it was 14c/kwh. May it was 11c/kwh. Do you think it'll stop there? I don't.

They're going to be basically forcing people to install solar at these rates, i get no less than 3 phone calls a day on my cell phone trying to sell me solar and how it's such an unbelievable deal. Then once people buckle and do, without reading the fine print, their excess will be sold back at next to nothing. So it's effectively preying on the general population.

Then what about people who rent or otherwise don't have an option to install solar? They will be stuck with these insane rates and no choice.

May I suggest you check with https://www.tesla.com/solarpanels before rejecting solar. Seems to have the best upfront pricing. Also Tesla Powerwalls with a Tesla Energy Gateway is the cat's meow in managing your power generation and consumption.

Tesla watches your weather and will bank power in your Powerwalls if they see a storm coming and potential outage.

 

[fatjay]

May I suggest you check with https://www.tesla.com/solarpanels before rejecting solar. Seems to have the best upfront pricing. Also Tesla Powerwalls with a Tesla Energy Gateway is the cat's meow in managing your power generation and consumption.

Tesla watches your weather and will bank power in your Powerwalls if they see a storm coming and potential outage.

I think you might have misunderstood something I said, I never said I rejected solar. I will not have a managed system though. Powerwall is $10k for 13.5kwh last I checked, which is absurd. Also tesla is booking 3+ years out for the tesla roof.

I have 38x 250w panels in the garage that I'm working on racking as we speak that I picked up for ~45/panel. I'm installing a hybrid inverter with 30kwh battery system. Currently looking at the eg4 13kw split phase inverter for $2700, and the eg4 rack mount 30kw LifePO4 system for $8300. The hybrid inverter will allow me to draw power from the grid in the event that my batteries get low.

I want a system that I manage, not someone else. It will not be connected to the internet. No one will be able to manage my power but me.

 

[Grumpycat]

I think you might have misunderstood something I said, I never said I rejected solar. I will not have a managed system though. Powerwall is $10k for 13.5kwh last I checked, which is absurd. Also tesla is booking 3+ years out for the tesla roof.

You are confusing Tesla Solar with Tesla Roof. The online quote for 10kW of Solar Edge inverters and optimizers is about $26k installed. Similar Tesla Roof is over $100k.

The first Powerwall costs more than N+1 because a Tesla Energy Gateway is needed to ensure one doesn’t out Powerwall power on the grid. Subsequent Powerwalls simply need to be plugged in.

The Solar Edge inverter is grid-tie, requires a 60 Hz pilot to sync. The Powerwalls provide that during an outage. Much of the Powerwall cost is the built-in inverter, charger, battery management, in each.

The management is all your own. Predictive weather is your choice to enable.

I have 38x 250w panels in the garage that I'm working on racking as we speak that I picked up for ~45/panel. I'm installing a hybrid inverter with 30kwh battery system. Currently looking at the eg4 13kw split phase inverter for $2700, and the eg4 rack mount 30kw LifePO4 system for $8300. The hybrid inverter will allow me to draw power from the grid in the event that my batteries get low.

I want a system that I manage, not someone else. It will not be connected to the internet. No one will be able to manage my power but me.

I suspect Tesla’s will not function without internet. But that also means you can monitor/control worldwide.

 

[fatjay]

You are confusing Tesla Solar with Tesla Roof. The online quote for 10kW of Solar Edge inverters and optimizers is about $26k installed. Similar Tesla Roof is over $100k.

The first Powerwall costs more than N+1 because a Tesla Energy Gateway is needed to ensure one doesn’t out Powerwall power on the grid. Subsequent Powerwalls simply need to be plugged in.

The Solar Edge inverter is grid-tie, requires a 60 Hz pilot to sync. The Powerwalls provide that during an outage. Much of the Powerwall cost is the built-in inverter, charger, battery management, in each.

The management is all your own. Predictive weather is your choice to enable.


I suspect Tesla’s will not function without internet. But that also means you can monitor/control worldwide.

I'm not a fan of grid tied, for the reasons gone over previously in this thread. At first I was a fan, when people were using the grid like a battery. Analog meters that simply spun backwards, how good of a deal is that. Then there was smart meters, and billing differently backwards and forwards. Then the price they pay dropped. So if I use 6k during the day average at any given time, it makes zero sense for me to get a 12k or 18k system. Anything over 6k is like free electric for the power company because i'm getting virtually no credit for my off peak consumption.

The idea was you produce like crazy during the day running your meter backwards so at nighttime you can consume the extra you produce during the day, pulling it back from the grid. They've taken away the incentive to produce any more than you would at any one time during daylight hours.

Which is why I'm buying a hybrid system. So i can produce like crazy during the day, and instead of feeding it to the grid, feed it to my battery. Then I'll use my battery during the night. If my battery happens to fall a bit short in the wee morning hours, I'll pull from grid to supplement it.

And tesla's system you can probably monitor worldwide, but what's to say I can't do that with my system? I can remote into my home servers and control many aspects of my home, mostly security cameras. I have a web server that I can use to monitor the software via an API, or if it has it's own web server I can just forward the ports on my router to the inverter/bms and monitor it that way. If I can monitor it locally, I have a way to monitor it remotely.

 

[ultrarunner]

When the neighbors found they had consistent surplus they bought A/C and switched out gas dryer and cooktop for electric… said it was better to use and not export

 

[Grumpycat]

I'm not a fan of grid tied, for the reasons gone over previously in this thread. At first I was a fan, when people were using the grid like a battery. Analog meters that simply spun backwards, how good of a deal is that. Then there was smart meters, and billing differently backwards and forwards. Then the price they pay dropped. So if I use 6k during the day average at any given time, it makes zero sense for me to get a 12k or 18k system. Anything over 6k is like free electric for the power company because i'm getting virtually no credit for my off peak consumption.

6k vs 6kW is getting fuzzy because your use during the day is not a flat line, and solar production is not a flat line. So you need something to buffer either battery or grid.

The idea was you produce like crazy during the day running your meter backwards so at nighttime you can consume the extra you produce during the day, pulling it back from the grid. They've taken away the incentive to produce any more than you would at any one time during daylight hours.

There is no longer an incentive because the utility was getting shafted.

Which is why I'm buying a hybrid system. So i can produce like crazy during the day, and instead of feeding it to the grid, feed it to my battery. Then I'll use my battery during the night. If my battery happens to fall a bit short in the wee morning hours, I'll pull from grid to supplement it.

Which is what I am also building for my new house.

Am not brave enough (yet) to buy enough batteries to go completely off-grid.

And tesla's system you can probably monitor worldwide, but what's to say I can't do that with my system? I can remote into my home servers and control many aspects of my home, mostly security cameras. I have a web server that I can use to monitor the software via an API, or if it has it's own web server I can just forward the ports on my router to the inverter/bms and monitor it that way. If I can monitor it locally, I have a way to monitor it remotely.

The big difference is Tesla has coders who love this stuff and so far are being allowed to express themselves (vs MBAs and market analysts designing systems). No server. No effort. No website (app only). The CPU is in the Tesla Energy Gateway. It knows how to talk to Solar Edge inverters, Powerwalls, Tesla Wall Connectors (EV charging), et al.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

How many vehicles get 58 mpg now? Will electric vehicles somehow get factored into that. Between this new standard and all the standards on all the home appliances things will get expensive.

Yes they get averaged in. Most EVs get the equivalent of 100+ MPG.

 

[Grumpycat]

Yes they get averaged in. Most EVs get the equivalent of 100+ MPG.

That is the fictional EPA MPGe based on kWh.

I claim the honest metric is MPG$. The cost per mile of electricity vs gasoline or diesel. $ is the only honest measure of resource consumption. Scarce resources cost more to ensure they go to those who can make the most use of it. Labor is necessary for making the fuel. Capital investment. None of this is accounted for with kWh which is only a theoretical measure ignoring energy availability. Lots of energy in gasoline but only 30-40% is readily useable to convert to mechanical work.

My understanding is coal plants also operate at about 37% thermal efficiency. But coal is inexpensive and requires very little “refining”. Natural gas fired plants can reach 60%. Natural gas requires some refining. Am told the 3 pipes running through my property use at least one running south from fracking fields in Ohio to be processed in Texas, then much returns north on the other pipes to as far as Nova Scotia. And yet, I can’t get natural gas in the house I am building.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Squeezing more miles out of cars is difficult. Putting more junk on gas engines (like auto stop) will only put more vehicles in the scrap yards faster. (which pollutes more than the engine running).

 

[5030]

I'm not sure what is worse engineering wise... GM's cylinder deactivation (that causes the engines to burn oil) or TPMS sensors or the stop start feature. All bad in my opinion.

 

[Grumpycat]

I'm not sure what is worse engineering wise... GM's cylinder deactivation (that causes the engines to burn oil) or TPMS sensors or the stop start feature. All bad in my opinion.

Cylinder deactivation.

I love TPMS. I put aftermarket TPMS on my streetbike and on my trailers. Saved my butt many times on the streetbike providing early warning during a ride that the rear tire was deflating. Yamaha FJR1300 doesn't do bad things going straight until the tire is very deflated. I certainly do not want to enter a fast sharp turn with a half inflated tire as I'll occasionally drag a footpeg. I don't want to drag a handlebar.

I love TPMS so much I own an Autel TS-508. I know 5030 is really hating me now! The TS-508 is fun for being able to check tire pressure, non-contact. Don't have to bend over! Totally excessive! But fun! Impress Your Friends!

Neither my Tesla nor Subaru have TPMS PSI display. The lowly F-150 does. Tesla would add it for only $800, replace the TPMS module to the latest, update the software, and change the wheel sensors. Cool that they could/would do it, but not at that price.

The F-150 has ASS. Has an easy button on the dash to disable until the next engine start. Doesn't bother me most of the time but if I approach a traffic light that I think is about to change I hit the button. So far too lazy to fire up Forscan to turn it off by default. Doesn't bother me enough to make that effort and I don't know of anything I want to hack on the truck.

 

[fatjay]

Squeezing more miles out of cars is difficult. Putting more junk on gas engines (like auto stop) will only put more vehicles in the scrap yards faster. (which pollutes more than the engine running).

Show me a modern day engine that will go to 300k miles. Lots of 80's, 90's, and even early 00's engines make it well past 200k and with basic care, 300k. Adding complexity of all the crap they have added to increase mpg while maintaining power.